7mm US model dabblings

[mickoo]

Okay, are we sitting comfortable, good, time for a GEVO update.

Having lost (currently) my trip overseas, the GEVO itch is too troublesome to ignore any further, and I have to confess the US bubble is also in full force.

A while ago I picked up a MTH 2 rail GEVO and having plundered the world wide web for images, found that MTH had managed to make a model that did not match any of the 10,000+ real engines.

It is a bit of a hybrid model and for the technophobes is essentially an ES44AC, however, that's about where reality ends. It has a MK II cab with the nose door on the left, that feature is/was a product of earlier engines, notably the AC44CW that came before. There are a few MK II cabs with doors on the left, but not many and mostly DC variants (ES44DC) from BNSF and CN.

The cab withstanding, the other niggle is the radiator section, the doors on the side are from the past and match the AC44CW class, not the later ES44 classes.

So, in a nut shell we are looking for a ES44AC, with a MK II cab and AC44CW radiator doors and there is a small batch delivered to BNSF that matches (least number of remaining issues) the model the closest, namely 5718 - 5955.

This is where it gets tricky, the first few (5718 - 5747) engines whilst grouped in the ES44AC category are actually coded as AC4400CW by BNSF, after 5747 they are coded ES44AC. More importantly, these first few carried on with the BNSF Heritage II paint scheme, the fable cigar band logo on the nose.

After much digging we now have a batch of engines, small as it is at just 30 that the MTH model can be adapted to.

With such a small class I'm amazed to have photographed three of them

5721 at Keenbrook.



5747, again at Keenbrook



5734 stomping up Ash Hill near Ludlow



Now the model and a brief reminder of what it looked like out of the box.





And after a couple of hours with knives and screwdrivers.



Couple of points to note, the inverter cubicle side comes off, that's obviously how MTH change between AC DC variant, however, no DC variants have the AC4400CW radiator doors

The dynamic brake openings show all three openings, the BNSF batch have a 0-1-1 configuration, so the foremost one will need blanking off, the same applies to the other side too. Some engines do have a 1-1-1 set up, others 1-0-1 and not always the same each side. Dynamic brake openings is a minefield in it's own right, most are flush with the body side but a couple of batches for BNSF and UP have the LH ones in a raised housing, more on that in the etch model at a later date.

Also of note is that all the walkways are thin etch sheets stuck down with double sided tape, excellent, means I do not need to sand them down.....



On the far right, MTH vent for the generator cubicle, in the middle, my more accurate 3D print, on the left MTH raised dynamic grill enclosure, they should be flush, not to worry as the vanes are pretty good so I'll trim these, add and etch overlay for the support strip and refit.

More concerning is the walkways, spot the bleedin obvious mistake....they have lozenge tread grips, GE does not do lozenge tread grips, only EMD does that. GE has raised pimples.



EMD furthest, GE closest, the plan here is all new overlays with pimples around the whole engine.

Moving to the nose.



The door had to go, hideous! as did pretty much everything else, note the NS brow headlight and number boards, these have to go and the headlight section filled. The plan is to add an overlay across the whole windscreen area, it'll cover up the headlight opening and already has new number boards of the correct style added. The existing windscreen openings will be enlarged, this will allow thin glazing to be added directly behind the new etch and give a much better appearance.

I've just sent of my V2 GEVO etch test build, on there are spare windscreen fronts and number boards, what I forgot to add is the nose headlight recess, bahh. The solution is to cut a hole in the nose, unsolder the headlight recess from my V1 test etch build and insert.

A new footplate etch will give the correct pimpled tread grips, I will also work up a whole new etch front end with pilot, steps and such like once I'm sure the V2 etch works fine. The same will happen at the rear.



On the drivers side the battery box covers also comes off, not sure what variant MTH would replace here, with out detailed digging I think they're all the same format as seen here. Once again, incorrect tread grips and worst of all, not hatches for the battery compartments.



The drivers cab door also had to go, I've already 3D printed one as a test, that'll be fitted and allow almost flush glazing and I'm seriously tempted to smooth off the cab side windows and add new more accurate overlays, again there are test ones already on etch V2, if they work, then I'll add them here as well.



I also dropped in a 3D test print of the larger generator cabinet filter, either mine is too narrow, or MTH is too wide. I will probably change this print, the flat flange plate with bolts does not print too well, but the vent does, I'll change it to just the vent in 3D and then add a etched surround to mimic the flange and bolts.

The electrical cubicle roof is pretty accurate so no work needed there.



The roof antennas had to go but the large middle bubble pack will have to go back, looking at MTH's shape it does not seem to match the BNSF antenna bubble, a gain a 3D print will suffice. The trench right down the middle of the roof is a mystery so some filler and sand smooth will correct that.





At the rear end the radiator grill section has already been striped of paint and I'm impressed with the level of detail, very impressed actually, if the rest of the shell is to this level then I can see me grabbing more of these and making up super detail kits. Having said that, outside of the 30 BNSF ones, all others will require a lot more work.

 

[mickoo]

Part two, much shorter I promise

The chassis



Pretty much of this will go, the MTH decoder is (I think) bespoke to MTHs DCC set up, in this case PS2, no idea what that is, don't care either as i don't have one of their controllers.

The smoke unit will go too, just junk, so will the rear switch board and most of the wiring.

The front motor will come out as will the big green portaloo which will allow a full cab to be fitted, I don't need two motors for a photo plank and even if I did get some sort of roundy roundy int he garden, it'd never tax that single motor. If it did i'd just add more locos up front.

Frank and Stein had to go too, ridiculous figures



The bogie side frames are massive thick chunks and to improve appearances would need moving inboard, quite difficult to re drill the holes and make good fixings.



So I've resurrected my test 3D print and will work on that to give a better fidelity truck frame that will wrap around the bogie and use the MTH fixings to secure it. Given that is has scale thickness sides it'll easily move closer to the wheels and look much better. I'll recover the brake cylinders, journal covers and dampers, no point having a dog and barking yourself.

Finally the fuel tank, err yes, hmmm.



The real deal, all be it a ES44DC, but all GEVO's are basically the same. To be fair to MTH, the reservoir section does kind of match earlier Dash 8's and 9's without the depressed centre section, however, those tanks are shorter, notably toward the rear.

On the image below the area aft of the rear filler (second of the two X's) is absent (tank shortened) and the same amount is also removed from the front.



Not sure which is worse, the graffiti or BNSF attempt to dissuade further attacks. The black X is a BNSF trait of the Los Angeles area, mind so is the graffiti which particularly bad in that area too.

There's a whole load more to do with the chassis but the cup runneth over with the currently planned work.

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Frank and Stein had to go too, ridiculous figures

The wheels look a bit chunky too ......will these go

Col.

 

[mickoo]

The wheels look a bit chunky too ......will these go

Col.

Mmm, been thinking about that, for the US they're actually scale wheels .....or so they say.

But then the real deal are quite chunky too.....



BNSF 4857 spotted lame in the hole at Siberia at 06:08, there were a hand full of crew tags on the engine so work had not finished, I suspect the engineers had popped to Ludlow for breakfast, so I grabbed a few quick photos and Foxtrot Oscar'd too sweet.

 

[Rob R]

If you are taking the front motor (and bogie?) out are you going to scratchbuilt another one around it?

Rob

 

[mickoo]

Just the motor Rob, the bogie remains and I'll make a new 3D printed truck to go around both bogies.

 

[Scale7JB]

Ooh Ooh, do these help..

Shot from a (very) high vantage point just outside of LaCrosse, Wisconsin.



JB.

 

[mickoo]

Ooh Ooh, do these help..

Shot from a (very) high vantage point just outside of LaCrosse, Wisconsin.

View attachment 119814 View attachment 119815 View attachment 119816

JB.

Yes they do

They confirm that the two side blade antennas are staggered, not aligned as on other engines, there appears to be a larger square patch behind the main antenna bubble, not recall seeing that, though haven't been specifically looking for that, and, a small round item ahead of the main bubble antenna, again not seen either of those.

 

[mickoo]

Moving on, as ever an evolving project and once the paint was removed it was much easier to see what we're dealing with.

Whilst the details were visible before, the gloss black paint work made it difficult to ascertain details easily.









On the whole, the paint came off reasonably well, the decals, stripes and road name were particularly difficult. I was only able to soak one end at a time, and doing the rear section first, made the mistake of trying to agitate the road name with a soft wire brush, that didn't go so well but managed a recovery with fine W & D and soft fibre brushes.

For the front end, I attacked the numbers and decals first with a fibre brush, cutting them back to the black paint underneath, that did the trick and the rest of the paint came off mush easier.

So what do we finally have, given all the blurb before we've established it's nothing like the real thing, but comes close to one small batch on the BNSF, not as close as I originally thought which resulted in a lot more leg work and two further possible contenders.....later.

Starting at the cab. Clearly the windows have to go, new etch overlays are being produced as we speak, these'll cover the headlight opening and new number boards will also be fitted from etch. I've also marked in red the sand box maintenance hatches, perfect for BNSF variants, but different on other candidates.



I've also marked the cab vent, it's horrendous and needs taking off and an etch overlay adding....for all variants.



For reference, here's what the real number boards should look like, a CREX ES44AC at Winslow, but it's the same over most, if not all later models.



Moving reward to the radiator section there's two features to watch for.

The first is the small access door under the secondary intercooler radiators, this module is basically where GE upgraded their Tier rating, by running the engine hotter you clean up the emissions, but you also need bigger cooling groups; but not for the whole engine, just specific parts, these are cooled in the forward section of the radiator group. The rear section continues to cool the rest of the engine as per older models.



On the MTH model it has a dual door with a sloping edge at the front, it's the same both sides. This door arrangement and the three below vary between models and often within batches, as does the small vent below the handbrake wheel.

Sadly the sloped edged door does not fit the planned 30 BNSF ES44AC/AC4400CW engines, the small rectangular one does.

BNSF 5747 Barstow. I found under my AC4400CW category that I'd done a walk around of one of these 30 engines It's what BNSF lists them as but they really should be under ES44AC.



Also of interest are the small inspection hatches under the main cooler group, these'll be added as an etch overlay and are on most engines, though I suspect size and position may vary.

At the rear we stumble across another issue.



Specifically the rear headlight cluster and sand box filler. Again, using BNSF 5747 walk around we can see the differences.



In short we need to move the light and sand box fillers around to suit.

If we are going to continue with the initial batch of 30 BNSF ES44AC variants then the following will have to be done, at minimum.

New windscreen/number boards, new cab vent, new inter cooler inspection doors, rebuilt rear end for sand box filler and headlight cluster.

 

[mickoo]

Following on from the above and after a little more leg work, two further groups present themselves as possible candidates.

Reworking the rear end isn't so difficult, nor the cab, which will have to be done for all versions. The hard part is trimming flush the inter cooler doors and adding new overlays, the overlays are not hard, just the clean and neat removal of the old ones.

The first batch are again BNSF and with cigar band logos (it's a must), these are BNSF 7651 - 7743, a much larger range to choose from and are very common in So Cal, sadly most are graffiti ridden to hell.

A rare clean-er one, BNSF 7702 on Cajon pass at Davis Ranch road crossing, sometimes called the 'bowl'



The downside to this class is that it's an ES44DC and requires a bit of further reworking.

The upside is that the difficult to clean and replace inter cooler doors match the model, as does the lower vent below the handbrake wheel.



On the down side, the inverter cubicle....not inverters on the DC model......has a different arrangement.



On the MTH model this whole face section is removable, so (relatively) it's much easier to make a new etch section here and fit to the engine than faffing around with the inter cooler doors.

Note also the DC models have different dynamic brake cabinet covers, specifically the middle one, this is a later batch 'swoosh' one so I'll need to research the earlier cigar band engines to see if the arrangement is the same. It would not be hard to file off this single panel on the model and fit a new etched one.

Also like the other BNSF engines, the rear end sand filler and light cluster modifications need doing.

For a BNSF ES44DC we need to do the following.

New windscreen/number boards, new cab vent, rebuilt rear end for sand box filler and headlight cluster, new dynamic brake covers, new DC electrical cabinet.

Enter suspect #3

Union Pacific 5248 - 5593, an even bigger batch of locos to choose from.

UP 5360 Cajon.



I have three walk arounds from this batch.

UP 5386 Mojave left and right sides.



UP 5406 Lenwood - Barstow right hand side.



And UP 5318 Cajon left hand side.



The last image shows the only two modifications needed, the whole rear end and cooler group is identical, as are the dynamic brakes and covers and AC inverter cabinet. Better yet, these are 'flagged', another must for me.

The easiest change is the front sand box mechanism cover, a change to the UP style with an etch overlay, I've not seen this style of cover on any other railroad through out the different models.

The biggest change how ever is the MK I cab, the large sliding windows is easy enough to do with etch overlays, the quarter light with rubber grommet not so.

CSX 265 Orlando, an older Dash 9 AC model.



Blending that in smoothly will not be easy.

I've already got some MK II window overlays on the etch so will add a couple of these MK I windows and see how I can possibly hack it around to make a MK I cab.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Will you be making up new radiator and door grilles or leave them as they are until a suitable replacement can be produced?

If the dimensions of the concertina of the grills can be ascertained could these be 3D printed using clear resin and then painted but maintaining the see through effect?

 

[mickoo]

Dave, it's only the small inter cooler doors at the front top end that need reworking, I don't have detailed close ups of the left side, only the right but from what I can glean, my left side annotations are not far out.

On the right side, remove the section bordered in red, add a new etch overlay (yellow) into this cleaned up area. Fill the joint between the doors in green.



On the left side, again, remove the area in red and replace with the etched bolted panel (yellow), fill in the beveled edge in the bolted panel above to make it rectangular; finally, fill in the gap between the two doors in green.

I don't think the rear upper and lower doors are joined as they are on the right hand side.....hinge alignment etc, photos.....kind of....confirm that.



Looking at the above it's probably not as hard as I am imagining, but you'd still have to rework the rear end sand box and light cluster.

This particular modification only applies to the cigar band ES44AC's 5718 - 5747, the rest of the batch (5748 - 5955) have the same doors as the model, but all are 'Swoosh' logos.

I'm not a fan of the H3 swoosh scheme, except 7695 which has the unique yellow swoosh and BNSF lettering on the side, now that does look smart, sadly it's an ES44DC and would require the mods noted above.

At the moment it's a two horse race, the BNSF early ES44AC or the UP batch with MK I cabs, the DC versions require too much work, the other two are currently less work.

 

[mickoo]

Trucks, printers and scaling.

Finally got around to revamping my old original GEVO truck print artwork. It didn't fair well the first time around, basic lack of understanding on the print process, but it served it's purpose.

The main revisions were the ability to add or remove the relevant parts for the different types of truck, changes through the years and in some cases different builders (the raw castings are out sourced) result in small but important details.

Having cut back to the main core casting we can then add the relevant parts to suit the variants, but before doing that it's a good idea to make sure the core is right and fits; it has to serve two developing paths, the MTH revamp and my etched model.

First the real deal, the real truck is a common use truck, I.E. it can be used front or rear indiscriminately, for that to happen it needs common fittings, or the ability to fit those fitting when required, the most obvious being the handbrake anchor point.



This is the 'clean' side or left side, trucks have no reference to the engine left or right, the transom (rear transverse beam) is always the rear and abuts the fuel tank at both ends.



The 'dirty' side or right hand side, this side has all appendages and extra fittings, the most obvious are the front and rear axle dampers, these are always fitted on both trucks, so diagonally oppose each other across the engine.

The other items are the two plates with three bolts on which I should know what they do....and at some point actually did.....but right now evades me. A dim past memory thinks they were to fit a middle axle damper on a particular order, a quick look in my images finds nothing obvious right now, I'll look another time.

The final item is the flat plate with the hole in, in reality it's attached to a steel post clear of the truck side frame and is the handbrake chain anchor point, this feature is only fitted when the truck is in the trailing position.

Axle box pedestal.



This is the later type with square blocks cast integral at each end, when fitted to the middle axle they hold and secure the slack adjuster bar, when fitted to the front or rear they (may) secure the sand pipes, some sand pipes have other fixings and these are not required. You can also see the steel post above left holding the handbrake chain anchor point.

The older style of pedestal had round smooth ends, expect the middle axle which had the cast fixings, GE streamlined the inventory and just made them all one type round about the AC4400CW range of models, but it's still common to see them mixed up here and there.

With that in mind the axle pedestal cannot be a part of the core frame, you wouldn't be able to get the wire wound springs in either.



Left side frame casting, there's a couple of tweaks needed to finalise it, specifically a small adjustment to the axle damper fixing plate, as well as adding the damper upper arms. I also need to add the safety hook casting that sits above the centre axle and truck yaw damper fixing mount.

The transom is a separate casting as it varies between AC and DC motor fitted trucks, we're modelling an AC unit so the motor securing 'peg' is truncated.

The dirty side, it needs a little more cleaning up from the print supports, but as this was only a test print to see it if fits the MTH model then it'll suffice as is.



The separate transom (peg and corresponding hole to secure) with short motor support peg is obvious, it does need two horns going forward at some point. The recess cups will hold the pedestal primary springs in place, these'll be wire wound to get as close an appearance to the real thing, 3D printed won't quite capture it I feel.

There's some damage (self inflicted) to the lower portions of the horn guides, I'm not overly concerned as the pedestals will cover all that up once fitted.

Trial fit on the MTH model, oh dear...



The support pegs I'd added lined up well with the motor truck and despite the camera angle the height is close for the first pass. I'm hoping that adding the brakes and levers with slack adjusters is going to distract the eye from the Frankenstein gears, I suspect not.

However the biggest issue is the axle spacing, it's a wide angle shot so one could be forgiven to think it was a camera perspective issue.



It isn't negating the slight angle of the side frame it's clear to see the MTH axles are not in the right place, measuring reveals they are 1.2 mm out at each end.

Which leaves two choices, remake the 3D print to match the MTH axle spacing's, aka two 3D models to suit each developing path, or just ignore it and try to imagine the error isn't there.

The other downside to extending the print is that this current side frame is at the absolute limit of the printer and had to be printed diagonally to fit, adding a further 2.4 mm will probably push it over the edge.

One possible solution is to move the transom joint from the rear between the frames to the sides just before the upper surface sweeps up, it'll take 7 mm off the length but make blending more difficult.

I'll sleep on that one I think.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

If you want to use the MTH drive then you'll have no option than to alter truck frames to suit the spacing. The only problem is knowing it's not quite right .

Otherwise a re-think of the drive system will be required if scale truck frames are used - this would be my option.

 

[Overseer]

If it was mine the obvious answer would be a new mechanism. Too many NQRs as it is. The axle centres need to be right, for the look and to avoid wasting time doing an incorrect version of the side frames. The prototype traction motor casings are relatively small so there is a lot of light visible through the truck, unlike the MTH solid block with gears spinning around on the outside. Scale wheels would look better, even if you space them for 5' gauge instead of P48.

 

[mickoo]

You are both right of course.

Without new drives or chassis to accommodate, the MTH will never be more than a sugar coated turd; I accept that but that doesn't mean I embrace it. The idea behind the MTH project is to lift it to as high a level as possible with the minimum of leg work; using as much of the etched counterpart as possible to upgrade. Even with a new chassis and drives, it'll still be no better than last weeks Sunday roast reheated in the microwave.

To get 5 star you'll need to start from scratch, even the coveted Overland Dash8-CW I've just acquired is only 3 star in my view. It's good but could easily take more detail to uplift it, sadly it's already painted so it'll stay as is.

To be fair, I'm not even sure O gauge will give me the fidelity I want, there is every possibility that I'll end up in Gauge 1 for my target 5 star models.

Scale wheels would be nice, but despite looking for several years on and off, I've not seen readily available commercial ones and I don't have the time to turn my own, nor do these offend me that much that I feel I must change them.

The etched counterpart will require new drives and new chassis and it'll be developed with an eye to drop into the MTH model if I ever feel the need. As such it's important to retain as much of the MTH model chassis as stock, no hacking or reshaping, just part removal, thus, in the future it can be reassembled and sold as spares to recover some costs.

Having said that last statement, it has just struck me that rather than take off all that I don't need to get a bare minimum chassis......which is fundamentally and incorrectly shaped anyway.....it might pay to make my own new chassis and take off only what I do need, in this case the two motor bricks, one sans motor to clear the cab confines.

That's a thought process I hadn't considered before today.

The 3D print has already been modified, that's the beauty of CAD, I've a couple of core parts to add and will print later today.

 

[Overseer]

Scale wheels would be nice, but despite looking for several years on and off, I've not seen readily available commercial ones and I don't have the time to turn my own, nor do these offend me that much that I feel I must change them.

Wheels are easy, see - Right-O-Way Online Catalog - Diesel Wheels. Right-O-Way service is efficient, subject to mail functioning of course, and the owner Jay Criswell is a member of WT. The wheels are prototypically profiled front and back. He does custom diesel drives as well, although of course you are able build your own if you want to.

 

[Scale7JB]

Why stop at Gauge 1? Go for 5" gauge !

JB.

 

[mickoo]

Why stop at Gauge 1? Go for 5" gauge !

JB.

5" is a bit mad, I've certainly considered 2½" gauge occasionally for that 'one' special model

 

[mickoo]

Wheels are easy, see - Right-O-Way Online Catalog - Diesel Wheels. Right-O-Way service is efficient, subject to mail functioning of course, and the owner Jay Criswell is a member of WT. The wheels are prototypically profiled front and back. He does custom diesel drives as well, although of course you are able build your own if you want to.

Cheers, I'll look into these, maybe not for the MTH GEVO but other home built projects