7mm US model dabblings

Big Train James

Western Thunderer
I would think that for the bolted closure strips at the top front and top rear edges, a separate etched or styrene piece could be a solution. By the way, I think the Pennsy also had production gp9 B units, so you might search those photos as well if you are still needing additional reference material.

By the way, dash 2 era doors for the sake of reference, from the CNW sd40-2 at Illinois Railway Museum.

DSC05393.JPG
DSC05395.JPG
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Stanchions - I used the P&D GP9 sets on mine. However, only enough are provided for an A unit. You would need another 6 for a B unit.

48'' fans - I presume you're modelling a phase 3 GP9B. I acquired extra RC sprues of 48'' fans from @JasonD. It's worth checking with Jason to see if he has any more kicking around his spares box.

Louvers (louvres) - check the prototype - the Archer Decals louvers are a different profile - more akin to 2nd generation. If you want a match to the RC lovers you may have to print these. I used the Archer louvers on the battery box on my GP9 but they did match the prototype.

View attachment 128871
Dave, my problem is era dysfunction, aka, too many interests spread over too many years.

A Phase III with three 48" fans UP 300-349 and corresponding B units wasn't introduced until 1959 which is after the Overlands, TTT, FTT and SA-C steam classes were withdrawn, Challengers, FEF and Big Boys were all that remained. However the Ph III car body matches the RC one the closest with regards to louvres.

The Ph II was introduced in 1954, UP 130-299, 130B-204B and the last batches match the RC shell except for an extra set of louvres required (not checked battery boxes etc as yet). These worked hand in hand with the steam classes listed above and in fact were the harbingers of their demise.

1960 is the last full year of the remaining Jabelmann big three steam classes, it also allows you to squeak in the turbo 567s in the form of GP20's and SD24's, it also allows the GTEL monsters too

Post 1960 you're now into the monster diesel range, U50BB, DD35's, C855, U50C's and Centennials.

Regarding stanchions, not the right type I'm afraid, early UP Geeps had the big brackets and pole affairs.

Again a crop & copyright Don Strack @ UtahRails.

Image1.jpg
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
I would think that for the bolted closure strips at the top front and top rear edges, a separate etched or styrene piece could be a solution. By the way, I think the Pennsy also had production gp9 B units, so you might search those photos as well if you are still needing additional reference material.

By the way, dash 2 era doors for the sake of reference, from the CNW sd40-2 at Illinois Railway Museum.

View attachment 128873
View attachment 128874
Certainly lapped on later models and as far as I've seen, flush on the model I require.....curses :D

Etched closure plate is almost certainly the best way forward and I'll add some to the artwork for the rest of the metal work required.
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Regarding stanchions, not the right type I'm afraid, early UP Geeps had the big brackets and pole affairs.

Phase I stanchions then. You could print the top and bottom in resin. Brass wire for the handrail and L shaped brass wire for the stanchion support with the bottom of the L poked into the sill.

However, if all your GP9 A and B units are Phase I you'll require 24 stanchions for an A unit and 30 for a B unit.

With the number required (108+) consider making some patterns and get them cast in brass. If more than enough are made I'm sure a few of us could relieve you of any surplus to requirements :D. I haven't checked to see if any phase I EMD stanchions are available.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Yup Ph I required.

Not sure 3D prints would be strong enough unless you split the parts like the real thing and threaded them onto the suggested soldered wire set up.....life is sometimes just too short :D

I'm sure they must be available commercially (addendum, just noted Jim already found them earlier at Des Plaines and P&D, P&D stock item PDP2090K) but having a batch cast up in the UK is certainly an attraction given the number I require for the GP9's, current and possible future arrivals. I'll also need them for the SD7's (10 on UP's roster) and SD9's on the SP.

SP seem to have mixed them up from my quick look at them re handrail posts. could be GRIP mixing up of numbers or new orders filling in gaps from older orders (Ph II handrails).

If I'm going down that road then may as well replace the front and rear deck handrail posts for brass if necessary.
 
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mickoo

Western Thunderer
Well it arrived today, finally, after a 30 year wait. For as long as I can remember....probably longer....I've always wanted one of these.

Back in my early days of modelling HO, these were impossible to acquire, there were no 4mm versions and the brass 7mm ones were eye stinging expensive, they still are!

I've seen a few on Ebay but they were going for top $$$, most don't actually sell as they've been pitched too high in all honesty, this one was going well right until the last few moments, where upon (whilst loosing the bid) I decided you only live once and went all in....to win by $10 and still inside my upper limit.

Then the tale began, although the seller said he would ship to the UK the price that came back was enough to spit your tongue out! Don't ever complain about Ebays global shipping prices, trust me they are 'significantly' cheaper then shipping yourself. There are cheaper shipping options, but given the cost and 'wantage' (mickooism again for I WANT THAT or to coin a favourite Finding Nemo phrase, MINE) I opted for a single door to door carrier.

Fortunately a second option was available, a friend in the US who by sheer chance lived just down the road from the seller agreed to collect in person and package up and ship to the UK, big :thumbs: to him, you know who you are ;) I did half expect a postcard from Malibu with said person sipping drinks on a deck chair next to the model...wishing I was here :p

It actually worked out cheaper to split the model from the OEM box and ship the expensive bits in a more secure and smaller carton, then ship the massive model box empty by a cheaper carrier, that's still on it's way but the important bit has arrived, and with no further ado, here she is.

The Overland Ajin OMI Union Pacific Veranda turbine #75.

IMG_9222.jpg

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IMG_9226.jpg

That's just the power unit, it comes with a fuel tender as well.

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Overall it's in pretty good condition, given it's age; mind I'm not exactly sure how old it actually is. My gut is late 80's early 90's but the build quality and detail is much better than that era.

It looks to be factory painted and I think....factory weathered, it's not the best weathering....it's not the worst and it'll be a very big dosage bravery pill before I consider adding a little more, turbines got filthy very quickly.

On quick inspection there's a little damage, one post is bent on the rear pilot deck and has come away from the handrail, an easy fix, more difficult is the thin beading on the front pilot which has sprung clear from a dry joint, clearly the beading was not preformed, or at some point in it's life has been caught and pulled off. I may be able to get some heat behind and reattach without damaging the paint work, again....big bravery pill called for.

There are a couple of niggles with the factory build model at first glance, the turbine exhaust grill is not correct and the mirror/wind breaks are fitted at a jaunty angle, both sides too, basically the lower hinge is in the wrong place. It'll be hard to rectify both issues without damage to the paint job, so, I have to confess, unlike virtually everything else I've bought....this one will not follow that path.

In their early days they ran solo or double headed with steam, usually Jabelmann Challengers and Big Boys, later they ran MU'd with diesels, typically GP9's, A nd B units but sometimes F3's A & B. As such an extra set of hoses were added to the left rear of the fuel tender, they're not present on this model which limits the date to pre 1959, maybe 58, I need to check the books to find out the dates and if all were modified as I've a niggle some might not have been and I've no proof yet that #75 was.

The Verandas arrived in 1954 which is the last year most late era UP steam classes were still in operation, especially the SA-C 2-8-8-0 'Bull Moose's' which I kind of like...a bit ;)

The priority now is to get some sort of layout for these monsters, something like Laramie but not Laramie would be ideal. Given Union Pacifics common standard policy it is going to be hard not to duplicate something that looks broadly similar, they even laid out all of their big depots in a reasonably common format.

It will mean a reshuffle of the workshop and the loss of a large work area, nor do I really have room for a full 135' turntable but I must try and get something to play trains with :D
 
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Big Train James

Western Thunderer
I think you're right about the late 80's/early 90's time frame on the model. I can probably ask around over here, there's a modeler on another forum I visit who has discussed the OMI turbine models previously.

Conversely, I doubt the model is factory painted. My impression of most brass models, not just OMI, is that none were typically factory painted in that era. Custom painting was the norm. I think the factory painted brass models didn't start coming into vogue until at least the mid 90's or so. Interestingly, I recall being told at some point that custom painting improved the value of raw brass models in the early years, but then actually was considered a detraction once factory painted models became standard practice.

One way to tell a factory painted OMI model, is that the item number will have a ".1" suffix. If the suffix is missing, then the model came unfinished from the factory. Which is what I would expect in the case of this model.

Beautiful model otherwise. I would have coveted it in my younger days, having grown up as a UP fan thanks to summer trips west back in the day. I should see if I can find some of my dad's slides from those trips. I've since migrated to either smaller prototypes of that era, or more modern prototypes in general. But I'm still impressed.
 

Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen

Western Thunderer
Well it arrived today, finally, after a 30 year wait. For as long as I can remember....probably longer....I've always wanted one of these.

Back in my early days of modelling HO, these were impossible to acquire, there were no 4mm versions and the brass 7mm ones were eye stinging expensive, they still are!

I've seen a few on Ebay but they were going for top $$$, most don't actually sell as they've been pitched too high in all honesty, this one was going well right until the last few moments, where upon (whilst loosing the bid) I decided you only live once and went all in....to win by $10 and still inside my upper limit.

Then the tale began, although the seller said he would ship to the UK the price that came back was enough to spit your tongue out! Don't ever complain about Ebays global shipping prices, trust me they are 'significantly' cheaper then shipping yourself. There are cheaper shipping options, but given the cost and 'wantage' (mickooism again for I WANT THAT or to coin a favourite Finding Nemo phrase, MINE) I opted for a single door to door carrier.

Fortunately a second option was available, a friend in the US who by sheer chance lived just down the road from the seller agreed to collect in person and package up and ship to the UK, big :thumbs: to him, you know who you are ;) I did half expect a postcard from Malibu with said person sipping drinks on a deck chair next to the model...wishing I was here :p

It actually worked out cheaper to split the model from the OEM box and ship the expensive bits in a more secure and smaller carton, then ship the massive model box empty by a cheaper carrier, that's still on it's way but the important bit has arrived, and with no further ado, here she is.

The Overland Ajin OMI Union Pacific Veranda turbine #75.

View attachment 128930

View attachment 128931

View attachment 128932

That's just the power unit, it comes with a fuel tender as well.

View attachment 128929

View attachment 128933

View attachment 128934

Overall it's in pretty good condition, given it's age; mind I'm not exactly sure how old it actually is. My gut is late 80's early 90's but the build quality and detail is much better than that era.

It looks to be factory painted and I think....factory weathered, it's not the best weathering....it's not the worst and it'll be a very big dosage bravery pill before I consider adding a little more, turbines got filthy very quickly.

On quick inspection there's a little damage, one post is bent on the rear pilot deck and has come away from the handrail, an easy fix, more difficult is the thin beading on the front pilot which has sprung clear from a dry joint, clearly the beading was not preformed, or at some point in it's life has been caught and pulled off. I may be able to get some heat behind and reattach without damaging the paint work, again....big bravery pill called for.

There are a couple of niggles with the factory build model at first glance, the turbine exhaust grill is not correct and the mirror/wind breaks are fitted at a jaunty angle, both sides too, basically the lower hinge is in the wrong place. It'll be hard to rectify both issues without damage to the paint job, so, I have to confess, unlike virtually everything else I've bought....this one will not follow that path.

In their early days they ran solo or double headed with steam, usually Jabelmann Challengers and Big Boys, later they ran MU'd with diesels, typically GP9's, A nd B units but sometimes F3's A & B. As such an extra set of hoses were added to the left rear of the fuel tender, they're not present on this model which limits the date to pre 1959, maybe 58, I need to check the books to find out the dates and if all were modified as I've a niggle some might not have been and I've no proof yet that #75 was.

The Verandas arrived in 1954 which is the last year most late era UP steam classes were still in operation, especially the SA-C 2-8-8-0 'Bull Moose's' which I kind of like...a bit ;)

The priority now is to get some sort of layout for these monsters, something like Laramie but not Laramie would be ideal. Given Union Pacifics common standard policy it is going to be hard not to duplicate something that looks broadly similar, they even laid out all of their big depots in a reasonably common format.

It will mean a reshuffle of the workshop and the loss of a large work area, nor do I really have room for a full 135' turntable but I must try and get something to play trains with :D

Superb Mick, would look really good on Love Lane !

all the best
Tim
 

PhilH

Western Thunderer
According to the Brass Price and Data Guide 2009 Edition the OMI Veranda Turbines were produced in 1982.

OMI Verandah Turbines.jpg

In the table the fifth column gives the catalogue number, the seventh column the number produced and the ninth column the list price.


According to Kratville and Ranks in their book "Motive Power of the Union Pacific", the UP President announced on 11th December 1952 that the Veranda Turbines Nos.61 to 75 had been ordered from General Electric. The last (No.75) was received on 28th October 1954.

Several diesel-turbine combinations were tried in 1958, including the use of two of the earlier series (Nos.59 and 60) back to back. But it was found that in tunnels the leading turbine would suck out all the air and the second unit would die. As quickly as possibly (to quote the book, presumably meaning from 1958) all 4500hp turbines were put into permanent MU GP9 - turbine combinations with a fuel tender between the units.
 
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mickoo

Western Thunderer
According to the Brass Price and Data Guide 2009 Edition the OMI Veranda Turbines were produced in 1982.


In the table the fifth column gives the catalogue number, the seventh column the number produced and the ninth column the list price.
Cheers and much appreciated.

I am signed up to BrassTrains.com and didn't know they did a list or book, apparently it's now on line but their link appear dead. I'll see if I can get a decent copy of the book from somewhere.

Basically it looks to be model 0218 and 1/75 and as Jim notes, none were factory painted.

Given that it's 38 years old it's pretty impressive I'd say and back then the quality would of been off the scale.

I did look at a U50C the other day, good price too but the build quality and part fit, as well as details were quite poor really, it was either an earlier model or maybe produced by a different factory or source under the Overland banner.

I do really need to get a move on and sort my GTEL out as well now, maybe once I've done the artwork for the GP9 chassis I'll begin repairing it, cleaning it up and getting some paint on.

Too many plates to spin right now though.....
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Superb Mick, would look really good on Love Lane !

all the best
Tim
I don't think there'd be a single piece of rail left in any chair once this passed :eek: if it didn't try and straighten every curve then the sheer weight would probably roll the rail over :p

The sound chip is going to be interesting, apparently, according to the tomes, they really only had two power settings, on and on, well technically 90 and 100% as far as the turbine went, there simply was no idle. Traction control was all on the electrical side, the prime mover was at almost full bore all the time.

Hence UP literally driving them into the ground with staggering mileages in their 10 year lifespan, to be economical they just had to keep them moving. For hostling there was a 600 hp (I think) donkey engine so the turbine could be shut down on the depot, save fuel and everyone's hearing as well I suspect.
 

SimonT

Western Thunderer
You lucky boy to find a tender - it took Pete Kirmond ages. Presumably you always have three busses arrive each time you go by a bus stop. I know where the dcc sound files are;).
Simon
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Nice model, interesting prototype.
I stumbled across the Turbines by accident, I was puzzled by the aura surrounding "Sherman's Hill" and went looking for information - did not take long to come across videos featuring the Turbines. Worth viewing.
 

PhilH

Western Thunderer
Out of curiosity I checked the Brass Trains website and the same information is available here:

Brass Guide Price & Data Guide for O Scale Diesel Turbine Union Pacific Overland Models Produced Trains

The printed guide is in two parts, a hardback volume with several articles and many photos, mainly of HO models, comprising just over 300 pages and a second softback volume with all the data running to just over 700 pages. I dread to think what the postage cost was !

According to the guide, Overland did the standard turbine in 1986 and the "Big Blow" 3-unit turbine in 1993, on which I have some doubts. In 1992 I visited a chap in Todmorden who was selling his collection of Brass 0 Scale Union Pacific locos, mainly diesel and turbine with only one steam. He had all three examples of turbine and I was severely tempted by his 3 unit which I'm reasonably sure was an Overland model, so he must have acquired it before 1992. Unfortunately I passed on the turbine as I'd only gone to purchase his steam loco - a Key Imports Big Boy - and a CA4 caboose, and the extra for the turbine was a bit too much at the time.

I developed an interest in the UP after a trip behind 8444 (as it then was) in 1978 from Denver to Laramie. We couldn't do the return leg to Denver as we were travelling west from Laramie via Amtrak to Portland, but then had a long wait at Laramie watching UP freights as the Amtrak train was about 4 hours behind schedule. The ride west was one of the roughest I've had on a main line train with the Amtrak trying to make up time on track battered by heavy freights !
 

Big Train James

Western Thunderer
Adding to the discussion, from my source on another forum:

The only OMI O scale turbine to come factory painted was the 1993 8500 HP Big Blow. Outstanding model. Sometime in the late 80's, Tom started offering "Custom Painted" turbines in HO, using various painters around the country. Some were good and some were great. And sometime in the early 90's all HO turbines were imported painted unless special ordered.

All the O scale 4500 HP turbines came unpainted. The Veranda was imported 1st around 1981, followed by the Standard or slab sided turbine in 1983. All of these had the infamous tank drive and Doug Cockerham did quite a business converting these models and any OMI tank drive models to his super drives. Although the soldering was hit or miss in the early 80's on all OMI models, the accuracy of these early turbines was excellent......and you really had no other choice if you wanted a turbine.

The most rare of the O scale OMI turbines was the #61 with special tender as only 10 or 15 were imported. The propane turbine (rare) was imported with a chrome plated tender, but unpainted turbine body. Many painters would paint over the chrome with a good silver paint as the prototype was silver.

I can't find my copy of "OMI the 1st 10 years" so I can't confirm these dates, but 99% sure the dates are right. Believe the total run of all 4500 HP turbines was between 100-125. To my knowledge OMI never ran a second batch of turbines, so they are all pretty rare. I know Rich has a copy of this book and might chime in on numbers and dates.

Tom offered these smaller turbines with and without tenders, but finding a tender on the secondary market was almost impossible. The prototypes only operated a very short time without tenders, due to high fuel usage and frequent fuel stops....which defeated the purpose of these engines to replace steam which required frequent stops (50-75 miles).

Shipping these smaller turbines requires some thought as the pilots get bent down easily shifting in the factory boxes. Best way to ship them is cocoon the turbine in bubble wrap and ship it in a separate box and they the factory box by itself.


This generally seems to jibe with other available information.



 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
So, what minimum radius will she take, then..??

Coat, hat, gone already............... :D
I suspect it might go down to six foot but I've not tested it yet, more as likely eight foot.

Besides, I've no room for a roundy roundy in the house and the garden will/should take ten foot ;) The house layout is a plank so radius isn't so important unless you use really short switches :p
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Well the package from UPHS finally arrived today, only took five weeks to get here, it left Atlanta twice...eight days apart and took ten days from New York to the UK hub.

Have drawings, will model......

Image7.jpg

Quite frankly I now have to many drawings, over 6000 for three complete engines plus hundreds for common standards parts, tenders and virtually all UP steam classes erecting cards.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Out of curiosity I checked the Brass Trains website and the same information is available here:

Brass Guide Price & Data Guide for O Scale Diesel Turbine Union Pacific Overland Models Produced Trains

The printed guide is in two parts, a hardback volume with several articles and many photos, mainly of HO models, comprising just over 300 pages and a second softback volume with all the data running to just over 700 pages. I dread to think what the postage cost was !

According to the guide, Overland did the standard turbine in 1986 and the "Big Blow" 3-unit turbine in 1993, on which I have some doubts. In 1992 I visited a chap in Todmorden who was selling his collection of Brass 0 Scale Union Pacific locos, mainly diesel and turbine with only one steam. He had all three examples of turbine and I was severely tempted by his 3 unit which I'm reasonably sure was an Overland model, so he must have acquired it before 1992. Unfortunately I passed on the turbine as I'd only gone to purchase his steam loco - a Key Imports Big Boy - and a CA4 caboose, and the extra for the turbine was a bit too much at the time.

I developed an interest in the UP after a trip behind 8444 (as it then was) in 1978 from Denver to Laramie. We couldn't do the return leg to Denver as we were travelling west from Laramie via Amtrak to Portland, but then had a long wait at Laramie watching UP freights as the Amtrak train was about 4 hours behind schedule. The ride west was one of the roughest I've had on a main line train with the Amtrak trying to make up time on track battered by heavy freights !
Phil,

I had seen that part of Brass Trains and had a little poke around with it last night, as you say it all seems to be there but I was kind of hoping for a clickable simple table like set up akin to the book. I don't know yet all the models Overland have produced, let alone Key models, Precision Scale, Max Grey or KTM, all a bit of a minefield. Maybe setting the search parameters in Brass Trains might help as a guide, time for more digging.

A Big Boy would be nice, but it's picking the right one, the RTR (Sunset 3rd rail in all reality, Lionel, MTH are quite a step below) are not too bad and need a lot of work to get up to the Veranda level.

From my basic digging it looks like KTM are a supplier in brass and were imported by Precision Scale and Max Grey, Key Imports seem to be a little bit of a step above and I think Kohs are probably top of the pile.

There's currently three KTM BB's on the bay of E, two painted and one brass, the brass one is a massive hike at £5000+ but the two painted ones are in the Sunset 3rd Rail price range around £1500.

I think Kermonds Laramie BB's are KTM and they do scrub up nicely, the other option is to roll your own and PSC parts catalogue has an awful lot of castings, probably a legacy of their involvement with KTM.

What I'd really like to find are some half decent brass TTT, FTT or MT classes and I think there really is only one decent Union Pacific (UP) type in brass, that from Kohs. Mind the Lionel one stripped back to bare metal looks a good basis to detail up.....once it's been bashed to 2 rail.
 
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