W1 as rebuilt

Discussion in 'Area 51' started by Dikitriki, 8 April 2015.

  1. Dikitriki

    Dikitriki Flying Squad


    This is something of a placeholder.

    Nick, Mickoo and I are all building W1s. We all want slightly different things out of the project; Nick and I are starting with the DJH limited edition kit, Mick is adapting a Hachette A4 body.

    The project is that Mickoo is going to design some etches that will cater for all our needs.

    Since the starting point for Nick and I is the DJH kit, I'm going to post a few pics of my progress to date, starting with a few shots on Heyside.




    There are some obvious issues that I was unhappy with:

    * The rear frame extensions are the wrong shape. The Cartazzi truck frame should be narrower than the Bissel truck frame. It isn't.

    * The cab interior is devoid of any detail being of armour plate thickness.

    * The ashpan is an afterthought to accommodate the over-wide rear frame at that point, having no front or bottom and only limited detail.

    On the plus side, it is undoubtedly imposing, and the shape is pretty well captured.

    I shall take more detail shots later, principally so the others can see what's in the kit, what's not, and where it could be improved.

    Feel free to join in:)

  2. Nick Dunhill

    Nick Dunhill Western Thunderer

    Whatever the flaws in the kit are it does capture the essence of the prototype. It does look a bit wrong round the ashpan area though. This is the rear of the chassis of an Hush-Hush I cobbled together by combining a DA A3 chassis kit with an Ace 'kit' HaHaHaHa.

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  3. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Nice! I see what you mean about the 'Panzer' cab ;)

    As Richard notes, mine is a much more extensive build, in essence I only have the nose and boiler, the firebox will need enlarging and everything else will be scratch built, primarily from etch art work. The added complication is that mine is also S7 so the artwork will have to be designed with both in mind to minimise the impact on all three projects.

    Ahh Nick slipped a quick post in there as I was typing. I see what you mean about the rear end mechanics, quite an origami exercise.
    Last edited: 8 April 2015
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  4. Rob Pulham

    Rob Pulham Western Thunderer

    I shall watch this with interest as I to have one of these to build albeit the un rebuilt version - from a Medley Models kit.
  5. Richard Spoors

    Richard Spoors Western Thunderer

    Richard, very nice to see your unpainted W1 pictures. One of Nick's W1 builds had been sitting on a shelf in my home for far too long so I'm delighted he is going to build it for me. One of the faults in the kit you did not mention is a longitudinal misalignment in the pewter casting which gives the cab a slight backwards tilt. I have seen a completed model that was improved by cutting a vertical slot the width of a saw bade from the top of the boiler just in front of the cab "vee" down to the footplate. The gap was then closed at the top and traces of the saw cut removed with filler. I'm not sure if this fault is common to all 50 of the limited edition kits, or came to be towards the end of the pewter casting run. But when you add to this problem the very thick cab side casting and lack of internal cab detail which you mention, my first request to Nick was an etched cab with a detailed backplate and detatchable roof. A search of Doncaster Works drawings at NRM produced several drawings that will help. As 60700 had a relatively short life in BR livery there are not too many photographs in books. I didn't see her until she was on the scrap line in Doncaster works in 1959.
    Now that there is a small team engaged in creating at least four detailed models of 60700 the next year is going to be very exciting!

    Last edited: 10 April 2015
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  6. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Richard, hopefully the drawings will arrive shortly so l can begin the artwork for the new cabs as well as many other details we all require.

    Nicks work is very good so the artwork will need to be spot on and fit exactly into the existing model.

    Our understanding is that the cab is very close to an A4 internally but any photos of the rebuilt cab will be welcome, I'm sure NRM will have some somewhere, its just a case of finding them;)
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  7. adrian

    adrian Flying Squad

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  8. Dikitriki

    Dikitriki Flying Squad

    Hi Richard,

    It is exciting to be involved, and I'm looking forward to moving the project forward, it having been becalmed for a number of years. I always work on the basis that if I leave a problem long enough, something will eventually come along to enable me to progress, and this is it:)

    I was never totally happy with the cab, but I didn't think mine was too far out (on the real thing, the verticals aren't always vertical!). It hadn't occurred to me to put a saw cut down the body, but since there is a new cab in the offing, that should not now be necessary. I shall have a further look when I get it in front of the camera.

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  9. Dikitriki

    Dikitriki Flying Squad

    Hi Mick,

    I've been away for a few days, taking advantage of the sunny weather, so the drawings have not yet been sent.

    Linda told me where I had put them, so I found them on our return last night, and got them out this morning to photograph them....no chance of copying them:).


    There are 11 drawings....so no excuses not to get it right:)

    Exhaust steam injector and pipework. J-504
    Wind doors between engine and tender. Y-144S
    Drain cocks, piping and parts. X-629
    Method of taking feed pipe through frame. J-504
    ATC arrangement, front end to cab. DN-E-1305
    Frame arrangement. O-264
    Cab side windows. C-714
    Live steam injector. J-509
    Front cab window. C-59
    Cab. C-41
    Arrangement of sand gear. X-634


    Last edited: 12 April 2015
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  10. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Super, look forward to getting them, I think we have a local firm that'll cope with that size. Failing that just note down the doncaster drawing reference in the bottom right, it'll be alpha numeric, cab starts with c I think and pipework with p. Then I'll grab my own copies from NRM in digital format :thumbs:
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  11. Dikitriki

    Dikitriki Flying Squad

    Will do...

    Edited - added to list above.
    Last edited: 12 April 2015
  12. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Enlarging your photo reveals the top drawing to be J504 and a quick reference on the NRM list confirms 'Arrangement of exhaust steam injector' more importantly it notes how Doncaster classifies the entry, which is ERO 2363, W1 or 10,000 Once you have those it's easier to find the rest.

    This is quite important for A3 class which are spread over several orders and making sure you get the right stretchers for each batch ;)

    On top of this, I can now cross reference that arrangement with A4 and A3 but just viewing the microfiche at NRM and if the same or close (make hand notes on site) use one drawing for all three projects, and thus save costs :thumbs:
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  13. Richard Spoors

    Richard Spoors Western Thunderer

    Hi Mick, when I did my W1 research in late 2013 I identified 20 drawings from the NRM Doncaster Works database which I asked NRM Search to make available for viewing. On viewing the drawings I decided on 10 that I thought would help the build. I have uploaded my file which shows the 20 drawings I looked at and the 10 you now have copies of. Thought you might be interested to see the description of the 10 I decided not to have printed.



    Attached Files:

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  14. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Richard, very helpful indeed :thumbs: I did find a few others but mostly related to between frame platework, which if the model is viewed on the track isn't visible, but I kind of figure if your going to have to make frame spacers, then they may was well look like the real thing or be a close facsimilie, it's only a few extra lines on the artwork.

    A great many parts are the same as the A4 and A3 locos, so the one drawing will suffice for all of my next three projects, the real big difference will be the actual frames, but internally a lot is the same or common user parts.
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  15. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Just a little update, ploughing through the main frame LH outer skin, a few more rivets and cut outs to do at the front end and it'll be virtually done. A quick mirror and the RH side will be done too, then onto the inner skin with all the slots for the stays and other details. Above is the start of the rear inner frame.


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  16. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Only just recently found some time to get back to this these past few days, so full steam ahead, inner and outer skin on LH frames pretty much finished, just need to check all the little details, then copy and mirror to the other side and amend for any LH or RH specific details, then onto the stretchers and other details. Very much WIP so be gentle ;)

  17. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Moving onward, glacially....too many other distractions :cool:

    y'all have to excuse the blurred lines as it get compressed terribly in the screen grab process.

    Just one or two rear stays to add, the rear drag box and bogie stay and pretty much all of the internal plate work is done, outside still to come are the motion brackets, slide bar brackets, outside cylinders with mounting flanges, rear firebox bracket and splasher tops and fronts plus a few other sundry steps and other detail platework.

    The intended stage one deadline is Telford for at least a trail copy of the etch work, hopefully made up so Richard, Richard and Nick can poke it about, as well as anyone else who's interested, Nick has tentatively agreed to stick it on his bench, maybe with an A3 paper copy of the artwork and on an easel behind the 1:1 works drawing, we'll see, long ways to go as yet :thumbs:
  18. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Now it's starting to fill up, so some part juggling required shortly I feel.

    The rear drag box tool some mental juggling, to resolve and reduce component parts to as few as possible and still allow easy assembly and look reasonably prototypical. Still to come are, outside cylinders, outside motion bracket, outside reversing bracket, rear pony truck stay and rear pony truck assembly plus a few other sundries that I can fill the spaces up with.

    I have to concede it's a bit more complex than I imagined when I set out and with a fair wind, should all fit together, though I suspect it'll take at least two photo tools to get the rear end frame angles and shapes to all etch correctly for a 100% fit. Even though the art work is to a 0.05 mm tolerance, the four bends on the frames under the firebox and cab can soon have a compound error of a few mm at the butt end, 2 mm too long and you can probably trim it back, but 2 mm too short...is a bloody disaster.

    To help, I draw the frames in real thickness and try to work out the lengths between bends by taking an average line through the middle of the material, it's further compounded by the outer frames being a laminate.


    You'll have to forgive all the random lines, they do all mean something important...honest. On the right are the several layers of frame material and several types of stay, some with bends, some in recessed pockets some with half etch detail plates in place. I'd hoped to just add a few changed parts for an S7 set of frames but it'll just be far too complicated and take up way too much space, so S7 will have to be a whole new etch or live with a 1.0 mm gap behind the wheels.

    So, back to my rather large stiff drink to unwind, never going to sleep with this 'busy' head LOL
    Last edited: 5 July 2015
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  19. Len Cattley

    Len Cattley Western Thunderer

    Hi Mick, will you be making these etching available to anybody?
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  20. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Len, that depends on a few factors, primarily if anyone else can get on with my cack handed method of construction, Nick and Richard will be good guinea pigs, it'll also mean a set of instructions as well, whilst most is pretty obvious, a lot probably isn't. In addition, a large sheet like this in Nickle Silver is not going to be bargin basement cheap I'm afraid.

    In addition, a lot of the internal work will only be seen if you pick the loco up and turn it over, especially the middle cylinder block, stays and rear drag box assemblies, if you like that sort of thing then it'll hopefully tick your boxes, but if your in the I can't see when it's on the track camp so why model it, then these are not your cup of tea.
    I have to confess, I've had a few 'oh that'll be good enough' moments but a few weeks later I always end up going back and redoing it either closer to scale or with more fidelity.

    At the moment it's only for O fine with a frame width of just shy of 28 mm, my A3 is just under 30 mm which is really pushing S7 so whilst it's all good for O fine, they might be a little narrow for S7 purists, an S7 set would mean a whole new set of stretchers and other adjustments I'm afraid.

    I've also just realised that the nominal frame width is 28 mm which consists of two laminations, a full one and a half etch on the outside with rivet detail, what I've forgotten to take into account is the depth of the rivet detail, an additional 0.225 mm on each side in fact. So the frames are actually 28.5 mm over etched detail, which means that every stay now has to be reduced by 0.5 mm through the whole etch and compensation made where ever they fitted :rolleyes: At least it's a nice round figure and not something like 0.375 mm or some thing.

    Back to your question, we'll see, lot of water to pass under a great many bridges before we get to think about public release, but it's not an improbability, just not the main focus at the moment.

    All the best


    Addendum, quick check on the etches, they are 28 mm over etched detail :thumbs: my main width scaling stay template I'd made up was correct, the rough centre of material one wasn't....duly corrected.
    Last edited: 8 July 2015
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