Wagon Identification Help

7mmMick

Western Thunderer
I'm currently indulging in a half term break with the family in the West of Scotland and we had a cracking day out yesterday at the Summerlee Museum of Industrial life, a fun packed day was enjoyed by all. Whilst on our wonders I saw this wagon on a siding at the back of the complex and it's design stood out a mile. I only had my phone for pictures so I started snapping away.

IMG_0473.jpg

I had a good look around and of note the bogie frames and sole bars seem to be pressed steel, which I've not seen a lot of. Each bogie had this plate on;

IMG_0474.jpg

There was also only one, what looked like original axle box cover left. This was broken in half but had an obvious 'MS'. A bit of t'internet research has lead me to the Leeds Forge Company (obvious I know) and the fact that they were in business until 1923. They had a patent on the production of pressed steel bogie's/underframes in this way and built wagons for both UK companies (with limited success) and other countries (with much greater success).

So this much I know. What I don't know is did the Leeds Forge Company build this wagon for the LMS? If so how many and for how long? What life has this wagon had and how did it survive this long? I'm not suggesting anyone puts in a boat load of research, just maybe signposts me in the write direction please?

If it's of interest I have a lot more photographs. It does seem that each bogie is independently braked but most of the gear has been removed.

Thanks in advance

Mick
 

Rob R

Western Thunderer
There is nothing looking like that in Bob Essery's Midland wagon book so that narrows it down a little........

R
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
Mick,

It looks like a Caledonian wagon. The Leeds Forge company built several types of wagon for the Caledonian and there is a picture of a Diag. 81 bogie bolster on Page 222 of Mike Williams' Caledonian wagon book which is very similar - with the same type of bogies, but with a pressed steel body instead of channel iron solebars. In fact it looks as though the channel section might have been added to a pressed steel body - maybe a repair of some sort in later life. There's also a picture of a Diag. 105 rail wagon which has the same similarities as the Diag. 81. The best identification factor is the length with the wagons for use with rail being 35ft long and the other types 45ft or 52ft long.

These wagons were all built around the start of WW1, so just over 100 years old.

I could post the picture to the Caledonian Railway Association forum to let people with more knowledge than me give an identification.

Jim.
 
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JimG

Western Thunderer
What life has this wagon had and how did it survive this long? I'm not suggesting anyone puts in a boat load of research, just maybe signposts me in the write direction please?

Mick,

It is possible that this wagon was pensioned off to work internally in one of the many steel companies that used to be in the Coatbridge area and would have spent a large part of its life in private service on the extensive network of tracks in these works. I suspect that might be where it acquired its channel section add-on solebars - maybe to cope with corrosion on the pressed steel body, or maybe just to strengthen it for some internal duties.


Jim.
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
Says 1912 on the builders plate although as that is on a bogie the rest of it might be a different date.


Rob

Leeds Forge started supplying bogie wagons to the Caledonian in 1901 - the Diag. 54 30T mineral wagon then the bogie swivel wagon, Diag. 81, in 1906. The next wagon from them was the 35 ton Diag. 105 bogie rail wagons in 1912. After that, according to the William's wagon book, there were no further orders for any type of wagon from them.

Jim.
 

Rob R

Western Thunderer
Jim,
The 35t rail wagon looks to be the beast. Do you think Mick would be able to sneak back and measure the length? :)

Rob
 

Osgood

Western Thunderer
I like a nice piece of Fox's pressed steel plate!

Below are a couple of early Leeds Forge wagons - an 1890s vintage 30T coal wagon, and a 1904 40T coal hopper for the NER.
Note use of leaf springs, unlike the wagon above.

Please excuse the quality - photocopiers have come a long way in the last 45 years!

30T Coal Wagon.jpg
NER 40T Coal Hopper.jpg
 

7mmMick

Western Thunderer
Jim,
The 35t rail wagon looks to be the beast. Do you think Mick would be able to sneak back and measure the length? :)

Rob

Took the thought out of my mind there Rob:D My Wife has family in Law and Carluke so we'll be up here again in the near future (Or I may suggest a visit). I think I'll pop back with a tape measure and do a full survey of the Wagon as it may be the basis of a future project for me, I do like the unique look of it.

Rob

Leeds Forge started supplying bogie wagons to the Caledonian in 1901 - the Diag. 54 30T mineral wagon then the bogie swivel wagon, Diag. 81, in 1906. The next wagon from them was the 35 ton Diag. 105 bogie rail wagons in 1912. After that, according to the William's wagon book, there were no further orders for any type of wagon from them.

Jim.

Dragon models do a 30t mineral, which @Rob Pulham of this parish has built. It's written up as L&Y though so I assumed either a L&Y heritage or Caledonian for this wagon? Either way they would have been absorbed into the LMS and then onto internal use maybe as you suggest. This one looks to definitely have been an internal user as there is evidence of an internal number, a badly bent sole bar on the opposite side to the first picture and as you say the later angle additions to repair damage sustained/take extra weight? Also of interest is the replacement buffer and broken LMS axle box cover. Some more images below, see what you think;

IMG_0475.jpg IMG_0476.jpg IMG_0482.jpg IMG_0484.jpg IMG_0493.jpg IMG_0490.jpg IMG_0498.jpg IMG_0523.jpg IMG_0516.jpg

A scan of the page would be great if you could please Jim, does it detail build numbers and use post grouping at all?

Mick
 

7mmMick

Western Thunderer
Spot on that Osgood,

Thanks for posting, the Dragon models kit uses that kind of spring on it's model and that too is a 30t coal wagon, but of all steel plate construction and not timber bodied. When I was hunting through the web I found reference to the Railway Engineer and an advert placed in there by the Leeds Forge Company for a wagon similar to this, but it was for overseas use unfortunately.

I also had a nose around the links Jan posted and they were very helpful too. The holy grail will be a wagon in common use in LMS livery, hopefully late 40's. It will then fit my modelling time period:D

Mick
 

Rob Pulham

Western Thunderer
Hi Mick,

The 30 ton bogie coal wagon is indeed Caledonian (with Leeds Forge Bogies) I think that you are confusing the L&Y with the 30 ton Bogie van which I built from a different Dragon models Kit

12390105375_6913053a0d_b.jpg
 
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7mmMick

Western Thunderer
That's the wee beastie Rob:thumbs: I have confused the two, apologies everyone. Right the Ex-Caledonian is where I need to go with this then. I hope the flat wagon above didn't go into internal use too early?

Mick
 

AJC

Western Thunderer
The whole wagon is certainly a Leeds Forge design (not anyone else's - they held the patent for the bogies and the frame design is very distinctive) and as such could have been built for anyone. It looks to me as though the original pressed steel solebar has been reinforced with channel by a later user. Here's something rather similar:

Britain's railway wagons | 3 Bogie low sides, Leeds Forge bogie Internal @ Barrow in Furness 79-08-26 � Paul Bartlett [2w]

The axlebox strongly suggests Caledonian in this case.

Leeds Forge were also responsible for the riveted ballast hopper BR called 'Trout' - the SECR had some that were near identical - and were thus effectively a generic type: Britain's railway wagons | DB992136 ZFO Trout slag extension @ Lowestoft 80-08-10 � Paul Bartlett w

Adam
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
A scan of the page would be great if you could please Jim, does it detail build numbers and use post grouping at all?

Mick,

The pages only have diagrams, so no detail drawings available in the book. But there is a reference to a 1913 drawing of a 35ft bogie rail wagon in one of the appendices and I'll check to see where that might be and whether it is accessible in any way. I'll PM for an email address when I've done the scans.

Jim.
 

7mmMick

Western Thunderer
The whole wagon is certainly a Leeds Forge design (not anyone else's - they held the patent for the bogies and the frame design is very distinctive) and as such could have been built for anyone. It looks to me as though the original pressed steel solebar has been reinforced with channel by a later user. Here's something rather similar:

Britain's railway wagons | 3 Bogie low sides, Leeds Forge bogie Internal @ Barrow in Furness 79-08-26 � Paul Bartlett [2w]

The axlebox strongly suggests Caledonian in this case.

Leeds Forge were also responsible for the riveted ballast hopper BR called 'Trout' - the SECR had some that were near identical - and were thus effectively a generic type: Britain's railway wagons | DB992136 ZFO Trout slag extension @ Lowestoft 80-08-10 � Paul Bartlett w

Adam

Cheers Adam,

I looked on Paul's site and couldn't find any wagon of this type for love nor money! Thanks for the link:thumbs:

Mick
 
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Osgood

Western Thunderer
That NER 40T hopper and the odd load of iron bar - I've just found a 1904 advert with side view of same, stating TEST LOAD 100 TONS :eek:
 
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