Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

Thanks for the additional info, Martin, but...... The available evidence says that 30919 withdrawn in February 1961 along with 30932. SEMG says January 1961. I remember this well, as I was hoping to see it for the last time when I went to Ashford in the April but it wasn't there. 30932 was. I have photos of 30932 and 30933 on that trip and the date is certain, as the trip is recorded in Six Bells Junction.

I'll be really grateful to know about your source as it will give some options to challenge the accepted truth. I know that BRDatabase isn't right all the time, but in this case it all fits with my personal knowledge.

Equally, if it's taking an ECS working to Charing Cross and then a train out from there it's still the wrong way round, is it not?

Help!

Brian

No it's not, reverse from Bricklayers Arms to North Kent East Junction, forward from NKE via L Bridge and Borough Market Junc into Cannon Street, reverse from Cannon St to Charing X via Metropolitan Junc where it's facing the coast. Another LE from Ewer St arives tender first to haul the stock away, the loco then attatches to the front of the next arrival at CX and right away for Ramsgate, Hastings, and all points east. It was done this way to reduce as far as possible occupation of the lines into the termini by lots of LE movements. It could and was done in the reverse direction as well.

Sorry I got the date info wrong although it is from Irwell Press, Book of the Schools, withdrawn Feb 61, cut up w/e 11/3/61.
Regards
Martin

Cor, Martin...... That's a wonderful lesson in the geography of the London Southern Railway lines. I had no idea it was so complicated. All makes perfect sense, too, when one sees it explained. It reminds me of a time within the last five years when I, accompanied by the good lady Dale, was returning to Tring Station from Streatham one evening (there's a very convenient Southern service hourly during the week) - when we heard of a derailment somewhere in the vicinity of Kensington Olympia. I was anticipating the complications of Southern to London Bridge or Victoria, then the tube, then Silverlink or whatever the franchise was at the time to Tring but no..... Our Southern service carried on the main line at Clapham - no right turn there - ended up at Willesden and thence on the West Coast route to Tring and beyond. Well caught! I thought.

I have the Book of the Schools, although that wasn't my source. I'll have a look at that as it may be worth advising a change for any reprint if the info is misleading. I've found that series of books accurate, on the whole, but anyone is entitled to an occasional error.

Brian

We're well in to Southern territory now with "Eastleigh. 30th November 1957", the same day as the shot of the Q and the visit to Salisbury. The Southern made some fine large tank locos and this H16, 30520, is representative of the breed. Clearly a late afternoon shot confirmed by the shadow image of Tim himself which has brought out the details of the loco's underpinnings. Exposure on this one was pretty good too so it just needed a minimal clean up.

30520 was a long time resident of Feltham being allocated there in 1948 with a brief period at Eastleigh starting in February 1961 and back to Feltham in May the same year before withdrawal in November 1962. It was probably just out of works in this shot. It was withdrawn in November 1962. (SLS and BR Database). The Railway Observer advises that the loco left Feltham for Eastleigh in October 1963 where it was cut up week ending 16th October 1963.

Also probably just out of works is Battle of Britain 34060 25 Squadron allocated to Exmouth Junction in May 1951, rebuilt in 1960 and allocated to Nine Elms in in November 1963 ending up at Eastleigh where it was withdrawn with the final knockings of steam on the Southern in July 1967. (SLS). It went to Salisbury, a concentration depot for withdrawn SR locos, for store where it was recorded in July 1967 (RO) and December 1967 (LCGB). The LCGB then record it as being sent dead engine to Gloucester on 16th March 1968 where they recorded it again between the 18th and 25th March. It was then noted awaiting entry to Cashmore's at Newport in May, June, July and August before being cut up by 25th September 1968.



Brian

If Tim's amenable I'd like a large copy of that for 'matters arising'; lovely photo. Lord Nelson tender to the right BTW - the Maunsell bogies, rear step, passenger livery and vac reservoirs are a give away...

Steph

I'll see what I can organise.

B

I was leaning out the coach window as we approached St.Pancras on multipal tracks (from Manchester Central) in November 1960 and saw one of these big Southern 4-6-2T shunting (I expect). I was wondering what a SR locos would be doing at such a location.

Hi Larry.

I suspect it had been or was on a cross London freight, probably on the North London lines. As far as I know - and this is my recollection only - you could find a Southern tank crossing the GWR lines at Old Oak (known and photos) and in the yards at Willesden (also known and photos), Cricklewood (probably known and photos but I need to check) and, therefore, I'd guess easily at any of the goods yards close to the principle London stations.

Those lines around London were a great asset and only recently really used for cross London services (somebody put me out of my misery - were there regular LMS/SR passenger trains using these lines in the past, unless for special charters?) - like the Milton Keynes to South Croydon service to which I refer above.

(Relatively recently, ie within the last ten years or so, I took some US clients to Gilgamesh at Camden. All night long our dinners were accompanied by the sound of the freights as they traversed the railway right next door. The drivers who knew where they were sounded the loco horns long and hard..

Brian

oldravendale said:

Those lines around London were a great asset and only recently really used for cross London services (somebody put me out of my misery - were there regular LMS/SR passenger trains using these lines in the past, unless for special charters?) - like the Milton Keynes to South Croydon service to which I refer above.

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In short yes. There were regular holiday LMS/SR passenger trains such as 'The Sunny South' which used the West London Line with locomotive changes at Kensington Olympia. There were a number of through holiday trains from Northern towns and cities to the Kent and Sussex holiday destinations and vice versa. Also between 1966 and 2005 Kensington Olympia was a Motorail Terminal with trains to all points of the compass.

Cross London freight transfer traffic from Feltham, Nine Elms, Hither Green and Bricklayers Arms/WillowWalk would have used the either the West London Line via Kensington Olympia or the Hounslow Loop to the North London Line for Old Oak Common, Willesden, Neasden, Cricklewood and others.

Thanks Dave. I was aware of the cross London freights, and the excursions, but what about regular passenger/commuter trains akin to Milton Keynes - South Croydon? Since I've been using that service I've seen accommodation increase from 4 to 5 to 6 carriage trains, and it's still crowded around West London. I simply don't remember such services in my yoof.

B

Brian,

An interesting Pug, nice and clean too, but to my eyes the bogie and trailing wheels are too big and the lum much too small! Comparing it with the Pacific behind it looks to be a big beast too.

Ian.

oldravendale said:

but what about regular passenger/commuter trains akin to Milton Keynes - South Croydon? Since I've been using that service I've seen accommodation increase from 4 to 5 to 6 carriage trains, and it's still crowded around West London. I simply don't remember such services in my yoof.

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From my readings cross London commuter traffic (mainly workmans trains) seems to have ceased around WWI with the GN/MR/SECR via Holborn Low Level; GE/LBSC via the East London Line and LNW via Kensington Addison Road. There were also workings with the LTSR and District Lines (Ealing-Southend).

The first reinsatement I'm aware of is the 1988 Thameslink Bedford-Brighton and Luton-Sutton and Sevenoaks through the Farringdon-Holborn Snow Hill tunnels. Since then traffic has boomed with the additional services you have mentioned.

Once the new deep level Crossrail lines are eventually opened this will be the closest we will have to the Paris RER lines.

Hello Ian. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! The Southern had some very quirky - and old designs - for sure. However, I always felt that these big tanks were well proportioned and good looking beasts. They were, after all, not intended for passenger work so didn't follow the passenger tank concept. In fact I believe they were actually banned from use on passenger trains. On the whole, though, I prefer the "W" tanks. I'll be surprised if there isn't one somewhere in this collection.

Dave - Thank you for the additional info. It seems a shame that these alternative routes around London were not more widely used in the mid to end 20th Century. Whoever decided to make use of them in the relatively recent past was a wise person.

Today a "celebrity" loco. The title for this is "3440 in regular use on DN & SR. Eastleigh. 30th November 1957." I remember City of Truro when in use as a regular service loco but never saw it on such trains, neither do I know its regular shed at the time. There's a potted history at 3440 4-4-0 GWR Churchward City Behind is Q class 0-6-0 30543. Nice little touch with the milk bottle on the window sill.

30543 was allocated to Eastleigh in September 1950 and stayed there until December 1962 when it moved to Stewarts Lane. It went to Three Bridges in January 1963, Brighton in December the same year and Redhill in June 1964 before being withdrawn in December 1964. (SLS). The Railway Observer reports it as scrapped at Ward's, Grays, Essex although WHTS needs verification after storage at Nine Elms in April 1965 for which verification is also needed. BR Database records a scrapping date of May 1965.



Brian

I like the framing of that - 'Truro almost looks like a ghost from a distant past (which I suppose it was), intruding on a somewhat grubby present. Probably a bit romantic for a Monday morning!

Adam

Hi Larry.

I have it in my mind - maybe I was dreaming - that you posted some comments yesterday including some interesting stuff about dodging and shading which I remember well from my photo school days. I've not worked out how to do that electronically and it'd be a useful tool when dealing with some of these images which are clearly lit from overhead so have overexposed highlights and underexposed shadows. I've found using the lighten or darken highlights, shadows or mid tones to be useful but it doesn't answer all circumstances. Additionally you attached another version of the above which showed the greater detail available in the shadow areas.

Did you delete for a specific reason, as they are interesting comments? In fact I tend to print these negs rather lighter and slightly lower in contrast than may be desirable for average scenes so that additional shadow detail may be drawn out.

And Adam - thanks for your poetic comment!

This is one of they lovely H15 4-6-0s. It's "30523. Eastleigh MPD. 30th November 1957." At the time of the photo this loco was shedded at Nine Elms (February 1951 - June 1959) before moving to Salisbury and withdrawal at the end of 1961. (SLS). Nice detail of the rear of a watercart tender behind the H15. The Railway Observer confirms it was cut up at Eastleigh week ending 3rd February 1963 but I suspect this may be a typo - BR Database advises it was scrapped in February 1962.



Brian

What happened was on reconsideration I wondered if my post showing an altered image of the GWR 'City' 4-4-0 might offend. Thanks for your comment. It is re-posted here after some dodging & shading or the equivalent 'darkroom work' in Photoshop...

LarryG said:

What happened was on reconsideration I wondered if my post showing an altered image of the GWR 'City' 4-4-0 might offend. Thanks for your comment. It is re-posted here after some dodging & shading or the equivalent 'darkroom work' in Photoshop...

Click to expand...

Thanks for re-posting this Larry as it shows the effects of the photo editing suite tools available. All weapons for our armouries when processing old negatives.

oldravendale said:

Hi Larry.

I've not worked out how to do that electronically and it'd be a useful tool when dealing with some of these images which are clearly lit from overhead so have overexposed highlights and underexposed shadows. I've found using the lighten or darken highlights, shadows or mid tones to be useful but it doesn't answer all circumstances. Additionally you attached another version of the above which showed the greater detail available in the shadow areas.
Brian

Click to expand...

In Photoshop select IMAGE, then ADJUSTMENTS then SELECTION COLOR. Select GREY to adjust greys, BLACK to adjust blask and WHITE to lighten whites.

HISTORY BRUSH, adjust OPACITY to around 40% and gradually restore smoke and background detail. Finally select FILTERS then SHARPEN then UNSHARP MASK to sharpen the whole image.

As always with computers, it is easier to show than describe. I should add that UNSHARP MASK needs setting up. To start off with use the following settings then adjust to taste when you see their affect...
Radius 0.8 pixels
Threshold 13 levels
Amount 170%

Tim Mills chose a good year (1957) as far as I am concerned. I was 15 yrs old at the time and, although I had been interested in railways and buses since my eyes first saw the world around me, I had a better understanding of what I was seeing by the time I reached the teens. It is the period I usually model. Keep 'em coming!

LarryG said:

As always with computers, it is easier to show than describe. I should add that UNSHARP MASK needs setting up. To start off with use the following settings then adjust to taste when you see their affect...
Radius 0.8 pixels
Threshold 13 levels
Amount 170%

Click to expand...

Thanks for the tips - I have a couple of photos I shall try that on.