4mm An EM Workbench: selection box

[AJC]

Hi Adam

Love the 21t hopper, as well as all your other work. I Searched Google to find a prototype pic, but only found these....

View attachment 60877

View attachment 60878

Do you have a full size wagon pic ?.

Steve

A couple of course - there's a nice one on p. 41 of Malcom Castledine's Industrial Railways in Northumbria and County Durham in the latter days of Steam (Booklaw, 2004). The grey-liveried ones do seem to have been the more common if photographic evidence is anything to go by, but having seen a handful of pictures of vehicles obviously in freight brown, I thought that I might as well. There's a little more detail in this thread over there http://www.rmweb.co....ches/?p=1246131 with a scan from Jon Hall, of a news item in Modern Railways from August 1963 marking the opening of the depot - note the hoppers, said to be of a dedicated rake of 19 - shown in the accompanying pictures. And there's this, which I posted a couple of pages ago:



This is a crop from a BR official picture published in Railway Bylines used for illustrative purposes (the wooden-framed wagons are internal users).

Note that it's coupled to a riveted, BR-ordered vehicle with welded-pattern supports and RCH long link brakes (Hurst Nelson built these - there's a glorious picture of a recently repainted example in '71 at Fenwick Colliery, here: No. 6 at Fenwick Colliery Weigh Cabin). I have plans, and the sacrificial Parkside kit for the purpose, to model one of those. I'll have to do a grey Charringtons vehicle - all the pictures I've seen are of welded vehicles - at some later point perhaps. Only one of Paul Bartlett's pictures seems to show one: http://paulbartlett....00716#h3d79ba9a

The Hoveringham version is fiction as far as I'm aware, or at least, on anything resembling an LNER hopper; they might well have had their own fleet of hoppers but not to that design.

Adam

 

[AJC]

Right - in the office and I have been through the archives of the Yahoo BR wagons group. Firstly, from Modern Railways 1963. In the April there is an article about 'House Style'. There are pictures of a conflat - this picture, I suspect: BR Conflat A wagons and containers FAV ZYV ZSV ZRV ZXA ZVV | B504777 Conflat A BD46577B Experimental livery � Paul Bartlett Collection w - with the white square displaying a figure 4 in the centre, and also a standard 12 ton vanfit also with the 4 in a box. There is plenty of discussion about the new colour schemes and to which types of wagon would be repainted, but no comment on the actual box. Of interest is that long wheelbase palvans built at Ashford for Ford traffic in 1963 carried a box with the figure '2' in it, though ex-works pictures of similar vans show a figure '1'. Compare these two pictures:

BR Ford Palvans VQB RRB ZEB ZRW Diag 1/235 | B787044 - work's picture, figure '1'

BR Ford Palvans VQB RRB ZEB ZRW Diag 1/235 | B787047 - in service picture, figure '2'

In November there was an article about a new stricter system of wagon control on BR, it has one very interesting statement, that for Control purposes the wagon stock has been divided into four classes. That these numbers refer to one of the proposed classes is an interesting but, erroneous theory; the 21 ton hoppers have the number 5 in their boxes for a start, but read on...

Ian Fleming supplied information from Minute 5821 of the Wagon Standards Sub-Comittee, dated 28.2.63 and found at the NRM. It details proposed categories 1 to 8, descending in speed from 75mph to 35mph - this ties in quite strongly with occasional photographic evidence such as the vehicles above, and suggested that the figure was, or would have been, painted in the box that in practice more usually contained the 'XP' in the post-1964 [sic - it was current for some new build stock from at east 1963; see the Palvan images linked to above] lettering style.

There is, however, no mention of any 'unclassified' category, which is possibly what an empty box signified at that point. Although only speculation on Ian's part, it could be that an empty box signified nothing more than that the vehicle *wasn't* XP-rated. I think this is extremely likely, at least, in original intent.

The following appeared in LMR WON [Wagon Operating Notices] in September 1963 (information from Mike Hollick). I have highlighted the appropriate bit.


NOTICE TO STAFF.

Limited speed of all four-wheeled vehicles of 10 feet wheelbase or less, and reduced maximum speed of Class 4 trains.

Until further notice all four-wheeled vehicles with a wheelbase of 10 feet or less are subject,to a speed restriction of 50 m.p.h. ,
If it is necessary for any such vehicle to be conveyed on a Class 1, 2 or 3 train, the Guard must advise the Driver and instruct him not to exceed 50 m.p.h.
Class 4 or 4+ trains must not exceed 50 m.p.h. at any point unless indicated in the timetable by a "club" symbol, in which case a maximum speed of 55 m.p.h, (Class 4) or 60 m.p.h. (Class 4+) will be permissible. Should it be necessary for a train so indicated to
carry a four-wheeled vehicle with a wheelbase of 10 feet or less the Guard must instruct the Driver not to exceed 50 m.p.h.

Painting of Freight Stock and Non-bogie Coaching Stock.

It is the future intention that all freight stock and non-bogie coaching stock will be marked to Indicate the maximum speed at which it may run. It may have been observed that a number of vehicles have already appeared in service bearing a white numeral in a white lined square, and without the symbol "XP" where applicable.

Full instructions on this subject will be published in due course. In the meantime it should be noted that the Numerals "1" "2" or "3" are equivalent to "XP" marking.
(21-9-63)

And finally, we have this document, showing that the idea was still live in 1967 but had not been generally acted upon at that date and, if photographic evidence is anything to go by, never was.



If anyone is still reading at this point, all this points to the two 21 tonners being repainted in 1963 (both wagons were constructed in the 1950s: B429561 from Gloucester C&W Co., lot 3159 of 1958, for example) and that this, taken with my previous post suggests with a very high degree of probability - and rarer still, in the world of wagon discussions, with proper contemporary references! - that the photo was taken in 1963.

Adam

 

[Pugsley]

@Overseer Hi Fraser - I agree that in this picture the lettering colour is ambiguous and the ascribed date is plainly too late. In the other picture (which I can scan for comparison this evening) the blackness of the lettering seems more clear cut, or as much as it can be from a monochrome image. In any event, it is probable that the treatment of the grey wagons which were definitely black lettering on a red ground from the colour pictures I've seen would have been consistent with the brown.

To my mind, the top of those hoppers is either yellow, or most likely, grey. I say grey, as comparing the colour of the top of the hoppers with the mineral wagon to the right, they look to be eerily similar. With that in mind, I suspect the that the lettering is red.

Here's a little demo:

The bottom two are the same as the top two, but desaturated to greyscale. On the basis of that, I reckon grey with red lettering is most likely.

 

[AJC]

More plugging away at 51L's 1/166 hopper. I think I've reached the end of soldering for the moment without the risk of damaging what I've already done; it's time to start on the epoxy...



At the vac' cylinder end (I've straightened the lever and guide since), the cylinders themselves have been completely replaced with examples from Rumney Models while the brackets have been knocked up from scratch. The rod between the paired cylinders is a pragmatic decision since I couldn't easily solder the cylinders to the piston rods. The latter are soldered on to the chassis, the cylinders drilled slightly oversize vertically and then cross-drilled allowing them to hang off the rod which fulfils the role of the trunnions either side of the real cylinders. All this is held in with epoxy. On the real thing, the hopper supports serve as brackets for the cylinders and will here but in the meantime, the rod serves the purpose. While I can't say that my work is in the Guy Williams or John Hayes league, it's a world away from the crude whitemetal lumps supplied.



The next step is to fettle, fit and fix the remaining brake parts, axleboxes and springs.

Adam

 

[AJC]

Taking a break from mineral wagons of various kinds and in the midst of a rather stressful couple of weeks at work, I've knocked up a Parkside Palvan on a Rumney Models chassis. There's nothing wrong with the chassis supplied, but I wanted an 8-shoe braked version.

I rather like Palvans, for all that they were a failure in their intended use. They represent transition in the post-war world in a way that almost no other railway vehicle does.

• They are thoroughly traditional, based on RCH spec's and dimensions and entirely in keeping with pre-nationalisation design philosophy in their size and the small-load, common carrier, ethos.
• There are hints at modernity in their construction: plywood sheeting and AVB from new
• And yet... the traffic they were built for was a new phenomenon, the early days of palletised, mechanically handled bulk goods. Going on the allocations, to places like Port Sunlight, this was in the form of washing powder and tinned products: it's notable that for similar traffics, such as motor car parts, were carried in hired in continental ferry vans
• Like much of the Modernisation Plan rolling stock, they were built in substantial numbers, often alongside or very shortly before vehicles properly realising the transformation that these techniques would realise. The vanwide, a near contemporary in design terms, was a much more successful, if still reactive design. The visual contrast is not quite as stark as the fitted 21 tonners (a late 19th century design idea) alongside the first of the MGR hoppers, but it was the extent to which the railway was behind the curve is every bit as striking.
• Finally, their failure - witness this pair condemned at Feltham in '68 - owing to the technological problems of getting short wheelbase running gear to cope with the uneven loading caused by the large hinged doors on opposing corners - ironically has led to the type being massively over-represented in preservation; their afterlife in stores and army service saw to that.

Adam

 

[AJC]

And here, after a few little bits and pieces, is the complete Palvan, ready for painting.



Other, already painted, wagons have got that bit further. The Charringtons hopper has inched forward and - shocking paint job apart (weathering will obscure those rough edges, I hope) now has its running numbers and is ready for the all important Charringtons brand.



Meanwhile, I've managed to completely letter and reassemble the flat-bottomed 21 tonner, using the original lettering style, just for a change. More weathering to do now...



Adam

 

[AJC]

I've shown the beginnings of my ICI chorine tank here and there have been small developments which mean that soldering operations are near complete on this one, barring a couple of plates underneath to accommodate the mounting screws. The end supports for the cross bracing on these wagons were fabricated from channel and angle, as was normal for post-war tank wagons. Now I didn't have suitable channel for these, but I did have some L section which, once soldered in place provided the bones of the answer. The remaining side of the channel is from scrap etch from the chassis kit while the holes are part of an abortive attempt to model the boltheads that hold the real things in place. I had thought of doing this by soldering in pins but will instead use little plastic cubes; there's less risk of everything falling apart that way.



The other ongoing wagon project that I've alluded to earlier. This is another 21 ton hopper - a fairly substantial rebuild of a Parkside LNER dia. 100 wagon into a BR dia. 1/145. These were built by Metropolitan Cammell and also by Hurst, Nelson. They were interesting in their hybrid construction with riveted panels and framing in the same style as the welded 1/146. Here's a link to a Paul Bartlett picture: BR 21 ton coal hopper - rivetted bodies HTO | B416996_Hop_21_diag_1-145__m_ (thanks Paul). I



Now I'm not certain what the handrails inside the wagons were actually for and though Parkside supply them I usually trim them away. In this case, I've chosen to reinstate them in 0.3mm brass. The end platforms are from the Dave Bradwell chassis etch for the earlier chassis with NER style brakegear - which will also yield steps and rap plates in due course - because they are thinner than the Parkside versions - while the corner reinforcement plates are spares from the Rumney Models chassis which went under my dia. 1/107. There's still a very long way to go with this one; perhaps a dozen or so handrails for a start!

Adam

 

[AJC]

This doesn't show current progress on anything very much, but from the depths of a boxfile emerges something completely different. Don't get excited, it's gone back in the box now and will remain there until the other half reaches a stage where it can be useful.



There are lots and lots of things ahead of the associated standard 4 4-6-0 to finish first. Being 'old-school' finescale this is the Mainline version detailed (Comet axleboxes, etched steps and ladder from somewhere or other), rather than Bachmann rewheeled. That'd be much easier but I was gifted the bits long for the whole thing, a set of Sharmans included, before either that or the Hornby version was proposed, let alone released.

Following the discovery that spare valvegear and cylinders from the Hornby version can now be had the loco' might actually get finished, or at least running, this year but don't quote me on that in 2014. The original idea, I think was the the Mainline valvegear would have been recycled. Its sister loco' done in the same way by the chap who gave me the bits worked rather well in this form (and must, btw have had two right hand frames, mine has two left hand ones...).



Given the lamp irons, I suppose this should be in the Western forum - it'll be green too (with a double chimney). Back in the boxfile it goes.

Adam

 

[AJC]

A complete Pipe, allowing for the weather getting anywhere close to being warm enough to paint the thing anyhow. It's amazing, looking at it, how many minute components there are beneath the body - and how little needed doing to that.





Livery-wise, it'll be Freight Brown with boxed lettering and, just for a change, a load of some sort. Cable drums possibly.

Adam

 

[AJC]

I've not had a lot of time for modelling recently, but one day when the morning temperature headed above 0 degrees Celsius the Pipe acquired a coat of primer and has since had a couple of finishing coats; Humbrol chocolate brown on the underframe (mixed with a touch of metalcote gunmetal - I had the mix on the go for something else) and Precision Freight Brown above the solebar. The bodysides have had two or three coats of Klear prior to adding transfers. It's nearly there...



The inside has had a couple of coats - a dark grey and some weathered wood colours. This isn't done yet, there's another couple of passes to go.



Adam

 

[AJC]

Following a visit to the paintshop, having been lettered and dullcoted, the Pipe is now ready for weathering (subsequent to taking this picture, I've silvered the buffershanks - correct for OLEOs - and touched in the vac' pipe in red). I'm not sure what's more amazing; that we had the transfers in stock to do the job or that the sun shone long enough to take the picture.



Adam

 

[AJC]

One of Mr Bulleid's off the wall experiments, the penthouse roofed van. There were three of them, apparently, and amazingly, one of them (at least), managed to survive until 1966 if not a little longer. Some information, including an elevation of the end, is in the fourth volume of Chorley, Bixley, et al's 'SR Wagons'. Part of the idea was to solve the problem of leaking roofs that the usual shape SR vans were prone to (solved, apprently, by the adoption of plywood side sheeting) and partly, this was a rebuild of a bomb-damaged vehicle, no. 49363. The Ratio kit crossed my path subsequently and thus temptation had to be yielded to.



The modifications should be fairly obvious but weren't, in real terms, very complicated. The next couple of shots should show how things are going. So far, so good.






More as and when. The pictures remind me that I must do something to make the hinges more prominent...

Adam

 

[AJC]

The sun is shining this morning in Southampton and a few bits have been added so I popped outside to take a couple of pictures of the van in the sunshine. There are still things to do, some immediately obvious - upright vac' pipes, brake levers - and others less so. It does now have safety loops, door retaining chains, lamp irons and boltheads, etc. In other words, all the things that make this vehicle 'different' are done and now I just have to do the run of the mill stuff that all wagons need. Still, it's getting there.



One thing I'm considering is whether to add chalk boards. A lot or SR plywood vans had these added but neither of the prototype shots of the vehicle in BR days show the sides/ends clearly enough. The lamp iron is something not shown in the 1944 shot in 'SR Wagons' but I find it difficult to believe that it wouldn't have received one later. Chalk boards seem to be more discretionary.

Adam

 

[AJC]

One last thing. The van is now finished barring the levers and lever guides - I've run out of the latter - including scratchbuilt vac' pipes. Nothing wrong with the cast variety, it's simply that I've run out of those too.



I wouldn't normally bother with wrapping the fine filiament wire around the brass core - certainly not for pipes which hang down below the headstock but it seems worth it on this occasion.

Adam

 

[AJC]

Well, the van has now emerged from the paintshop - well, been hung out of the door and had a can of Halford's finest pointed at it - and treated to a coat of Humbrol Chocolate on the underframe and appropriate colours on the roof. Since the sun is shining this morning, there are pictures to be had, and here they are:






It's quite surprising how similar it looks to a standard SR plywood van it looks from the side; you might think the flat roof planes would be more apparent. The differences in the brakegear are also obvious and I'm pleased with this; it's always a relief to find the additional effort has been worth it! Next up for the sides are two or three coats of Klear to prepare for transfers which will be followed up with a dose of Dullcote over the top.

Something less exotic next I think...

Adam

 

[AJC]

After a bit of a modelling hiatus, a quick project to hopefully get me going (or at least, to relocate my tools following a house move). This is not especially complicated, turning a Hornby iron ore tippler into a Coil J. the real thing wasn't complicated either; take one tippler, cutting and welding gear and some lengths of timber and assemble.



The cradles seem to have varied a bit - I just copied this Paul Bartlett picture (thanks Paul): http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brcoilj/h20b474e9#h20b474e9


There will be a few bolt heads on this, but otherwise it's done and the complete wagon is ready for the paintshop.



Adam

 

[AJC]

Thanks Steve (and to everyone else who clicked the 'like' button; I'm glad someone is following this!). Another vehicle on the go - and you can blame Modelzone for this as well - is rather more involved and pushed at the very end of my modelling period. This suitably Western Thunder friendly image should give you all an idea.


Western Invader in Sonning Cutting by robmcrorie, on Flickr

Paul Bartlett, as is so often the case, has a gallery (and my heartfelt thanks - this resource makes modelling wagons much, much easier): http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/stsclaylinertta

The raw materials are a Bachmann 'TTA' chassis - in fact from one of a pair of heavily reduced Modelzone special edition spoil carriers - and an ancient Tri-ang model of the Clayliner tank. Why on earth Tri-ang chose this prototype I cannot begin to imagine since there were fewer than 20 of the things and they operated of a reasonably restricted flow between Burngullow and Sittingbourne, or from Burngullow to the Potteries. Still, they make for a nice blue tank wagon and it isn't impossible that they made their way in ones and twos on occasion. Besides, they were air-brake only and this makes an interesting change as a project. So far as the tank is concerned, all I have done so far is to remove the stickers and the tampo printed lettering before glue the tank together and filling all the various sink holes and making good the joins. I have also removed the pedestal and made a new one.

It's the chassis that needs the work, however. Monobloc tanks are subject to phenomenal amounts of variation in terms of things like spring hangers, vee-hangers, brake levers and the positioning of various components although the solebars, W iorns and axleboxes are reasonably uniform. I've only really got as far as the vee-hangers so far but I'm quite pleased with them so here we are. These are mounted on the outside of the solebars (Tri-ang got these about right) so had to be changed. I fretted them up from scrap etch - three layers, soldered together. The holes were marked out on a 20 thou' plastic template since this is easier to mark out than brass and the template superglued on top.



The lousy image above shows the sandwich and the now discarded template; The holes in the brass were done using the trusty Dremel. I'm only doing the one, if I wanted a rake, an etch would be called for. Below is one of the vees fitted with pins (I used the vee itself to mark out the solebars for drilling):



Finally, here's the finished item:



As you can see, the next step has to be the spring hangers before the links between them and the springs break and disappear from repeated bending.

Adam

 

[AJC]

More work on the Clayliner tank. The spring hangers started above have now been completed and installed as has the internal vee; you can see the latter more clearly than I thought might be possible but eventually it will be hidden by the discharge pipe and all the various linkages for the brakes. There's a sense now of how the completed chassis will look but there's lots still to do.





Next up, brake levers.

Adam

 

[AJC]

Moving on from the post above we're now more or less back where Bachmann started - albeit hopefully to a higher standard! The brake levers and linkages (a satisfyingly complex thing to look at but relatively easy to do) are easily to most obvious bits and I've knocked up the basic discharge pipe and its associated brackets from bits of brass tube and scrap etch. Check the pictures of the real thing by way of a comparison [thanks, as ever, to Paul Bartlett]:

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/stsclaylinertta/h8114c50#h8114c50

At this stage it might be worth a quick run down of where the bits come from:

• AB Cylinder: No Nonsense kits (it was meant to go under a 4TC until I realised that the AB gear is on the bogies of these units).
• Brake levers: adapted etch from Dave Bradwell (I don't thnk the etch is on his list but he usually has some at Scaleforum. It also has some rather nice lever guides, not used here because I've run out).
• Lever guides: CraigWelsh/Scalefour Society - if truth be told these are not quite the right pattern (they should be longer) and I'm not altogether impressed with them. Being dead scale - I'm not convinced that they're slightly underscale even in their intended use - they're a bit of a fiddle and that's fine but Nickel Silver is too brittle for the number of half etched folds used here. The one visible in the picture below has been re-assembled from the bits that resulted. Yes you get a spare on the etch but...
• Not quite visible are the AB distributer and resevoir cylinder. These come off a new generation Hornby MGR hopper. I had acquired this with a view to making one hi-fi vehicle but what with the strange compromises and errors present in that model one of the earlier versions might be a better bet, The seperately applied details are nice though.

If anyone is interested I can show how I did the linkages from little bits of 40 thou plastic? In 7mm you might do it properly - i.e., to replicate the prototype - but that's rather fiddly in this scale as anyone who's had a go at early Masokits clasp brakes can tell you. Waving a hot iron around all your carefully assembled existing detail and nicely moulded plastic underframe is not always the best idea either.



Next up is a set of safety loops, a little plumbing and, most significantly, some more detail on those discharge pipe ends.

Adam

 

[AJC]

Thanks Pugsley. Having had a few spare hours this weekend, I've completed the making phase of one of my longer term projects - another Bachmann conversion from earlier in the thread, a Bogie Bolster D from a BBA, sorry, BDA; I don't speak TOPS. It's a bit of a pig to photograph but here's my best effort. It's since had a couple of coats of paint and is ready for lettering and then the fun bit, weathering. There may even be a load at some point...








I'll come clean and admit that I've left off a few of the brake linkages since they really cannot be seen with the vac' pipe and vee hangers that are in the way.

The brake levers and guides are more of the CraigWelsh/Scalefour items and look about right in this application. The levers are simply bent about from items intended for 10' wheelbase Morton brakes. Again, these are somewhat over-designed: I see no reason to make the reversing clutch a serperate item. A half etched line representing the gap between the two bits (or etched through with the fold over layer at the back in one piece) would have been much, much easier to assemble for no loss in fidelity in appearance.

You would be right in thinking that the guides are somewhat fragile; that's unavoidable even at full size! My dodge is to have reinforced them with a bit of 0.5mm Nickel Silver wire soldered to the back of the guides and anchored firmly in the floor. I can't abide bent fittings and this relatively discreet bodge will hopefully make the wagon durable for layout use.

Adam