Tube underground track

Tim Watson

Western Thunderer
Does anyone have any information on how tube tunnel track ballast / drainage would have been managed pre 1932? Photos show fine ballast through station areas, but the tunnel itself rarely figures in pictures.

Tim
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
In my 'umble experinece, (spell checker's packed up) Tim, there has always been a "suicide pit" alongside tube station platforms rather than ballast. Mind you, I don't quite go back to 1932......

Brian
 

Tim Watson

Western Thunderer
Suicide pits were dug from 1934-5 onwards apparently. Which is very good news for us, as we will be able to replace the distinctly dodgy track at Caledonian Road with plain track.
We are looking at mass producing the track for the tunnel section, complete with ballast. It has to be incredibly robust and reliable for our purposes.

Tim
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Unlikely to be ballast in deep bore tube lines, Central, Piccadilly, Northern, Bakerloo etc.

These were built using cast iron sections, maybe concrete sections later, I suspect the tracks will be on a concrete slab with a sloped centre to allow drainage. Not sure what the station would be, probably something similar but maybe ballast due to lower speeds and less risk of lateral movement.

I've read somewhere, once upon a time, and a very long time ago, that ballast was not used on deep bore tubes due to the risk of the track moving and the stock becoming out of gauge.

Surface stock, or cut and cover like Circle and the Met used ballast through out tunnels and as far as I know still do, in fact I don't recall suicide pits on those lines but dimly recall some stations around the south eastern end are laid on a steel or concrete raft? possibly to do with the north embankment sewage tunnel that runs along that area. Can't recall if the sewage tunnel is the same depth or below the District/Circle lines in that area.
 

simond

Western Thunderer
I’d suggest a pm to Jim Snowdon on either the G0G forum (if they let him back in) or RMWeb.

I don’t think he inhabits WT, but he worked for LUL in an Engineering role and could surely help.

hth
Simon
 

Tim Watson

Western Thunderer
I presume standard sleepers are let into the concrete in the tunnels.
I’ll find a contact for Jim Snowden.
LTMuseum is currently only working at reduced capacity: I’m awaiting some high resolution images from them of the station.

Tim
 

Peter Insole

Western Thunderer
Tim, all the track in tube tunnels was always ballasted.

Here is a picture from the net which clearly shows how it was set up:

38bak_8431819225_3bbd3e607c_z.jpg

As you can see, the lower portion of the cast iron segments are concreted over. The sleeper ends are contained in slots left in the concrete, thus ensuring that there is absolutely no chance of the formation shifting even slightly out of gauge - which as you can also appreciate from the image would be potentially disastrous!

Ballast is of course still needed to provide sufficient support across the gap.

The majority of deep level tubes being cut through dry London clay, along with the method of construction, would normally require very little drainage anyway, but was otherwise achieved by running a permeable pipe contained within the ballast and placed centrally beneath the track.

I do hope you find that helpful?

Pete.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
I've done a little digging through some sites I know, mostly photographic urban, fringe legal sort of thing, not that I condone such actions but they do give good images of areas rarely seen.

London Underground supply this official photograph. Copyright London Underground LUL.

48a55e77-9aa8-41df-9051-558a7274f8d9-London underground.jpg

An underground urban group posted these shots.

GES088 - Bull & Bush (North End) Incomplete Tube Station

The track is how I imagined it to be from previous memories/research/interest bubbles, though it appears it is more common to use sleepers inset into the concrete base with gravel in the middle for drainage. However it appears that there are also sections with a complete concrete slab and stools/fittings to support the rail, these maybe modern upgrades.

For good station information, google abandoned underground stations, specifically Strand/Aldwych which closed in 1917 I think, it still has the original station track bed which looks to be gravel with standard sleepers, albeit covered in a layer of grime and baked almost smooth.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Aldwych closed much later than that, Mick. In fact around the 1990s from my memory. It was certainly operating when I worked in Kingsway and from my appalling memory that was probably around late '60s to early '70's. (Please prefix those decades with 19.)

I note from images that it was ballasted, unlike most other tube stations. Is that because it was a terminal station and therefore not subject to trains pulling in at breakneck speeds?

Brian
 

Tim Watson

Western Thunderer
Thanks for all the inputs. Google has taken a pounding of late and the underground urban explorer sites have been useful. It seems that there is some gravel ballast, as Pete suggests, but really only acting for limited drainage. Smooth and only slightly roughed up should do the trick with the method that we may use for tunnel tracks: the inter-sleeper spaces will be slightly milled through PCB. The rings and tunnel lining etc will probably be made by laser cutting.

Tim
 
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Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Hi Tim

I do have a book (which I cannot find at the moment) about the rebuilding of the City and South London, although the Northern Line, and is roughly commensurate with the time scale.

In the meantime I came across these Topical Press photographs in the LT collection which may assist. Some are nearer the timescale you're modelling.

Piccadilly line near Earls Court 1933 (they are cleaning the telephone wires).
Earls Court Picc 1933.jpg

These two are during track renewal near Highgate (Northern Line) 1938
i0000bme 1938.jpg i0000g6c 1938.jpg

Borough during C&SLR rebuilding 1922
i0000vob 1922.jpg

Waterloo 1923
i00009mh waterloo 1923.jpg

Kennington 1926
Kennington 1926.jpg

Kings Cross Piccadilly Line 1909 - looks like sleepered track
KX Picc 1909.jpg

Chalk Farm 1947
u37477.jpg
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
As a long time London TransporT enthusiast this stuff is quite absorbing. I travelled on the tube and surface lines for more years than I care to remember and details such as these eluded me - or more correctly I should say that I took insufficient interest.

Brian
 

Tim Watson

Western Thunderer
I always like to research a model as much as possible when making it: that being a major part of the enjoyment. The tube railway is fascinating and the art and design aspects of the UndergrounD very classy.

Tim
 

Peter Insole

Western Thunderer
Sorry Tim, here comes a bit of a thread hijack...

38north ''northern southbound''. 8-96.jpg

I quite agree about the research!

When I did this one back in '96, I bought a Travelcard and rode miles around the system specifically seeking any suitable LER type cross-passage to match what I wanted!

Chalk Farm turned out to be spot on.

Back then, while doing the reference sketches I could still make out the locations of the earlier/original light fittings, so another day trip to the LT Museum was required. That visit was not entirely successful, so as a last resort I made a small cardboard section model of this view, using the tile sizes and known measurements for scale, then rigged up some bicycle lamp bulbs to illuminate it. It really was the only way to work out how on earth all those shadows and reflections would have fallen on the complex geometry and curvy surfaces!!

I dread to think how many hours were spent researching this next one before it was completed though...??

38north ''green & gold to golders green'', drawing by peter insole.jpg

No cardboard replicas, bulbs and batteries were used that time though!!

Hope the pics bring back memories Tim and Brian...?!

Pete.
 
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