Trade Acc+Ess Protocab

May I please be permitted to introduce our company to you on this Forum?
We are developing a wireless model railway control system for availability in early 2013 -details at protocab.com.
Please complete the Contact Us form to receive updates and a regular free newsletter.
We will be updating this thread from time to time and we welcome comments and suggestions.
Here is an early video we made of an O gauge LBSCR Terrier on my 'Tregorran' Cornish GWR branch line under construction:

Tony Hagon
Director
Acc+Ess Limited
tony@protocab.com
 
A few notes on the 'Lady Emily' video....
The loco is powered by a lithium ion battery located in the boiler which connects to a Locomotive Control Unit (LCU) in the side tanks. This was an early prototype and the LCU was split into two, one piece in each sidetank. Our latest LCU designs are much smaller and on a single board. The LCU enable a stall current of 1Amp to be drawn. Different current variants is a key part of the design so catering for up to 10amps is not a problem.
The charging point and on/off switch were located on the long edge of one of the LCU boards and a slot cut in the footplate behind the valence to plug in the microUSB charging lead. This experience showed that this was an inflexible arrangement and thus we have taken the charging point and on/off switch off the main LCU into a small (20mm x 12mm) board (the LCU Interface board=LIU) that can be located at a convenient point in the loco with the LCU proper fixed wherever space for the 52mm x 22mm LCU can be accommodated. This arrangement is installed in our demo 4mm/ft SR Q class, GWR 'Grange' and the two 4mm Heljan locos (Hymek and Crompton), with the LCU in the water tank space of the steam loco tenders and the LIU in the coal space disguised in service by a dummy removable coal load. The LCUs are fitted in what was the motor space of the diesels with the LIUs in the underfloor fuel tanks. The battery is fitted in the boiler of the steam locos and in the body of the diesels.
The Protocab system features a Concentrator (located under the layout and thus not visible in the video) that handles messaging between the controllers and LCUs, and in the early releases of the product, the controller is an application on an Android powered smartphone or tablet. Soon after we will provide support for iPhones, followed later by our own range of controllers with a physical knob and/or slider for modellers who do not like touch screens.



IMAG1516.jpg

We have demonstrated the system at Scalefour North in April and Scaleforum in September (photo above) where we had all 6 locos working all day on a single overnight battery charge. Admittedly, the locos were not under trailing load, but we ran the Terrier continuously on the second day of Scaleforum on a rolling road and it ran for just over 5 hours.
The batteries are all charged in situ and we can charge 4 simultaneously through a USB hub. Charging time is under 4 hours from 'empty'.
The LIU contains a protection circuit to prevent overcharging and the LCU prevents the battery over-discharging. Li-Ion batteries should ideally be stored with a 40% charge where they can be kept for several months with very little loss of charge.
Earlier this month we were kindly invited to present to the Model Electronic Railway Group (MERG) at Keen House in London, and I am preparing an edited audio visual of the presentation which I hope to post on our website this coming week.
Do please contact me if you have any questions or observations/comments/criticisms/suggestions, all of which are always welcomed!

Best regards

Tony Hagon
Director
Acc+Ess Ltd
protocab.com
tony@protocab.com
 
A word on sound, lights and any other auxiliary devices on the loco. Battery technology requires a different approach to power management which is a major reason why we created our own standards (Acc+Ess) rather than adopting or piggybacking on existing control standards. One of the issues is the demands that the various auxiliary devices will put on the battery over and above the motor and the small amount of power that the LCU takes. If you have a diesel loco with a dozen coaches pulling hard up a 1 in 50 at night then you can imagine that the loudspeaker, smoke generator, coach lights etc are going to put quite a load on the battery. For that reason we are working on the development of the battery management circuit to handle auxiliary devices effectively. Thus sound and lights are not part of the initial product range (the Pilot Series) but are in plan for soon after. We'd be grateful to know what features you would like us to incorporate.

Best regards

Tony Hagon
Acc+Ess Protocab
protocab.com
tony@protocab.com
 

lancer1027

Western Thunderer
Hi Tony,

I can only speak for myself but from comments made before i think as regards sound all that i would like is loco starting up ( twice if it has two engines ) , loco horn , loco shutting down. With possibly brake squeel as it comes to a halt.:thumbs:

Lights.... basically so they could be switched on/off seperately to the loco sound but being able to leave on without too much drainage of the battery.:thumbs:

Well thats my thoughts:confused:. I willgo and lie down now:))

Rob:)
 

BrushType4

Western Thunderer
I'd like a couple of dozen functions that could be programmed to either play sounds, or switch things. This would allow user to programme whatever they want for any given loco.

On the sound side, I'd use the existing DCC atributes to save reventing the wheel in that respect.
 
S

Simon Dunkley

Guest
I'd like a couple of dozen functions that could be programmed to either play sounds, or switch things. This would allow user to programme whatever they want for any given loco.

On the sound side, I'd use the existing DCC atributes to save reventing the wheel in that respect.
I have been in email contact with Tony about various attributes, and I would say that he fully understands the needs for any new system to offer a similar level of flexibility as the best of the current range of DCC systems. Also that he is in contact with some very clever people (not me, then!) about this sort of thing. As he has said, it won't be immediately available, but when it comes, I reckon it will be a winner.

If I read things correctly, the battery management circuit would effectively switch off the auxilliaries, such as as sound, smoke and lights, when the charge fell below a certain point. This is neat, but I would like to be able to keep the headlight(s) on, if they are low in their power consumption.

I love the idea that I could put the software for the "concentrator" on a smartphone - I hope I will be able to use my increasingly out-of-date iPhone 3 for this purpose.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
I'd go with Robs requirments and hope for a good stepless throttle up and down.

Regarding auxillaries, is it possible to run them from a seperate battery so that if it fails then you can still run?.

The technology looks good but will your contollers support higher currents that 7mm will demand? I will read through all the blurb later but these are first impression questions so to speak.

Kindest
 
Many thanks for the feedback and suggestions which we will carefully consider and update you on our developments in due course.
Batteries
A number of contributors have asked about batteries and their use. We have an answer on the batteries used in Protocab on our FAQs page at
www.protocab.com
Do please contact me tony@protocab.com if you have any specific questions about Protocab batteries.
 

28ten

Guv'nor
I like the look of this, bottom line for me would be comparable cost to DCC and a similar range of sound projects.
As someone who is not heavily committed to DCC and with a general loathing of layout wiring I can see many advantages.
Controllers via iOS as well as a hand held would be a good idea, although i see why you have started with android.
 

lancer1027

Western Thunderer
Another question for Tony:oops::rolleyes:

I have spoken to a mate who already has Radio Control, and he has told me he doesnt think that there would be a suitable battery supply that would fit into a Heljan 7mm class 47 without major surgery.

Now im only going on what he tells me as im no nothing really about R/C. He also said that with the rechargable batteries available that looking at the space (even after surgery ) there would only be room for two banks of 4 cells which with the motors (2x ) in a heljan would only give about 15-20 mins.

Im basically asking if any variation in batteries is available ?. Are they all AA size ?.
My main concern is that i dont really want to do MAJOR surgery on my 47's just to get only about 20mins worth of running:confused:.

Any thoughts/help on this:thumbs:

Rob:)
 

iploffy

OC Blue Brigade
Rob this is why I originally mooted the idea that the trains use a power pick up from the track to continuously charge the batteries
 

Phill Dyson

Western Thunderer
Those Heljans do use a heck of a LOT of power:eek: ..........I'm also wondering about running times with twin motored Diesel kits?
 
Hi Rob
Without major surgery on your Heljan class 47, your friend is probably right. You could have a continuous charge from the rails as suggested above, but even then I suspect that there is not enough room to put batteries of sufficient power in the available space of an unmodified RTR diesel. The same goes really for an RTR steam profile.

I have not yet fitted a 7mm RTR diesel with Acc+Ess Protocab components, but I have converted two 4mm locos, the Hymek (35) and Crompton (33) and we get several hours running off each. I can't give you more accurate times as it depends on the loads and how much time the loco is actually running. I can only say that the locos run for several hours on a typical running session.

RTR models tend to include a very substantial mazak chassis for adhesive weight and in the case of the 4mm Heljan diesels there is a large central Buhler(?) motor connected to the two bogies via a pair of cardan shafts.


There was no room for the size of battery that would give sufficient power to drive the loco for a satisfactory length of time and pulling reasonable loads, therefore I had two options: retain the chassis and make provision for the battery and LCU or discard the chassis completely. I decided on the former, but recognised that this would need some surgery on the mazak block and discarding the motor in favour of using the space to contain the battery. The LCU would fit on top of the battery and the on.off switch and charging socket taken off the LCU on what we now have as the LCU Interface Unit (LIU) - a small component that would fit in the fuel tanks of the locos, for ease of access.

I discarded one bogie and replaced it with a Branchlines motor bogie,using the Heljan sideframes. The other bogie was retained but was now a dummy bogie without the cardan drive. I took out all the white gear wheels to reduce friction.

The mazak block had to be milled - slowly and carefully - to fit the power bogie and the 18650 battery that gives 2200milliamp/hours. The Mashima 1620 motor draws a stall current of around 500mA and this proved to be more than powerful enough to draw six coaches. The stall current is important as this determines the model of LCU to employ.

I should say that the decision to perform major surgery on a loco that has cost several hundred pounds would be a brave one but my own experience with the 4mm locos has been good and the result worth it. It all depends on what you want the loco to do in terms of running time and loads to pull, as well as auxiliary features such as sound that will also put a load on the battery, reducing its capacity.

We are at the cusp of battery technology that is sufficiently powerful to mount in model locomotives to provide effective running time AND be cost effective. This technology is developing all the time and Acc+Ess Limited is well aware of developments and will introduce new battery technology when it becomes available and affordable.

We don't claim that Acc+Ess Protocab is for everyone - yet! If you are running your Class 47 with a scale 1,000 tonnes behind continuously for the whole of an exhibition day, Protocab is not yet a realistic option. However, for the time being, our market is the modeller with a reasonable running session, a few hours, running the loco, say between the engine shed and station, pick up a train, run it to the fiddle yard and back again a few times.

We will introduce a range of battery capacities and shapes (cylinder, flat form) to ensure that our customers can choose the right battery for the sort of work that the loco is to be put to and for a reasonable running time of a few hours. Certainly the range extends WELL beyond AA! The message is to make enough space in the loco to fit the largest battery you can from the range and if the range needs a new battery size and shape - please tell me!
I hope this answers your points, Rob, if not, do please come back to me.
Best regards

Tony Hagon
Director
Acc+Ess Limited
tony@protocab.com
 

iploffy

OC Blue Brigade
Could you not permanently couple something behind like a GUV with sufficient batteries in where you cannot get them into the loco
 
S

SteveO

Guest
Surely there are higher capacity batteries than 2200mah? I'm sure I've seen some that are 4000+. This would significantly increase run time and add support for accessories?

Personally, I can't really see this working to any degree of efficiency with Heljan locos - they draw so much amperage so make run times quite low. This system would be ideal for kit-builds so you can plan battery and electronics positions from the start - and generally would give you much more room (depending on prototype). For a large, and mostly empty, diesel kit shell, you could have a couple packs for an hour or more running time, with lights and sound.
 

Phill Dyson

Western Thunderer
Personally, I can't really see this working to any degree of efficiency with Heljan locos - they draw so much amperage so make run times quite low. This system would be ideal for kit-builds so you can plan battery and electronics positions from the start - and generally would give you much more room (depending on prototype). For a large, and mostly empty, diesel kit shell, you could have a couple packs for an hour or more running time, with lights and sound.
I'm inclined to agree with you about 7mm Heljan's, would be nice to be proved wrong though :)
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
Personally, I can't really see this working to any degree of efficiency with Heljan locos - they draw so much amperage so make run times quite low. This system would be ideal for kit-builds so you can plan battery and electronics positions from the start - and generally would give you much more room (depending on prototype). For a large, and mostly empty, diesel kit shell, you could have a couple packs for an hour or more running time, with lights and sound.

Steve,

Maybe part of the thought process in contemplating battery powering is to consider changing the motor in a locomotive to a coreless design to get more efficiency and lower power consumption. It could be expensive depending on the type you have to get, but might be a cost trade off against the prices of some of the high capacity batteries becoming available. You might also have to provide some method of protecting the coreless motor from end thrust depending on the transmission of the locomotive.

Jim.
 
I'm inclined to agree with you, Steve, as they come out of the box, Heljan locos are mighty beasts -certainly in 4mm! And kit or scratch build is going to be the more easy route to start with, as you say, you can plan where to put the batteries and LCU.

To answer some of the recent posts, if I may. You could certainly put batteries in a trailing wagon or coach and connect it through to the loco. However, our design principles include that the loco power should be self contained as with the prototype as, agreeing with Phill, you would need to have the wagon permanently coupled. We have thought about having a small battery in the loco and other batteries in the wagons and connect them up when coupling, but we haven't done any research on this yet.

Steve rightly mentions that there are larger batteries than the 2200mAh that we have fitted to the 4mm locos. In the larger scales (7mm and up) we can use different package shapes and we can configure them to fit diesel bodies. The LCU doesn't increase proportionately in physical size so you have relatively more space for the power pack in a 7mm loco.

Certainly a more efficient motor should reduce battery consumption but there are other aspects that you may want to consider first. I chose to fit the 4mm Heljan diesel locos to see how easy it would be to convert an RTR
loco (see post above). In encountering the Buhler motor I wondered why such a powerful motor was necessary until someone told me that a significant amount of torque was required to overcome the frictional force of an unsprung bogie.

Another important consideration is the efficiency of the gears in transmitting the load.

The other aspect (I am told) is that RTR models are designed with the toy market as well as the finescale modeller in mind and ruggedness has to be built in. Many modellers still expect the loco to respond at rates of acceleration far higher than the full sized loco and this requires extra power. With my 4mm conversions, even with the weight of the battery replacing the Buhler motor, I was expecting the loco to struggle under power but I was able to pull quite a respectable train at realistic speeds with the Mashima motor working on two axles only. If I tried to accelerate instantly, I got wheel spin and very little forward movement. However, when I notch up gently, as per the prototype, the loco responds, lifts its load and gently accelerates. It is a whole different driving experience!

Next year, we will install Protocab in a 7mm Heljan and I will report our findings here and on our website. Meanwhile I have recently acquired another Hymek in 4mm and I intend to replace the mazak chassis with brass and put two sprung power bogies in to see what difference this makes.

We are still building our understanding of model loco efficiency and a number of trials with our dynamometer will enable us to determine how best to overcome power losses and build in efficient power handling circuitry.
Thanks for the various posts, they all add to our understanding of your requirements. We aim to satisfy them in due course.

Best regards
Tony Hagon
Acc+Ess Ltd
 
Top