Rivets

adrian

Flying Squad
Hi,

There is a wide variety of tools used by different modellers, from simple drop tools and blunt compass point all the way through to using milling machines and presses. Most of us have acquired suitable tools over the years many of which are no longer in production.

Available today probably the best one and recommended by many is the GW Tool.

GW-models - 1.jpeg
 

Michael Osborne

Western Thunderer
20210815_212213.jpg You didn't say what scale you are modelling in. I only have experience in 7mm scale so the tools I use are the Reynalds rivet tool and the G.W rivet machine. Both do the job of punching out the rivets on metal, plastic and card. The difference is the method of spacing the rivets out equally. I don't believe the Reynalds tool is still available but the G.W one is still on the market.

I also use proper scale rivets which are made from resin that are glued in pre drilled holes. They are available in many different sizes so could be used for other scales.

Each have a place in my workshop, so it just depends on what you require and if you have the patience or the skill to use any of the above.
As I get older ( I am 70 ) I find I struggle to punch out long straight lines of rivets without making a mistake which in metal are hard to rectify. When using the proper scale rivets I can easily replace or modify any undue errors.

I am aware of rivets that can be applied like tranfers but I haven't any knowledge of them.
20210809_202256.jpg
 

Oz7mm

Western Thunderer
Just to add to the various options outlined by Mike, I have used the transfer rivets on one model where the spacing to too small to successfully use a rivet tool.

On the tender in the picture, the rivets on the tank sides were transfers and those on the chassis were pressed using a GW press.

Oz_Tender_1s.jpg
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
I use a Double L (Leakey Lee) riveter which I bought in the 90s with 4 sizes of die. Nice and simple, and it doesn't distort the metal, even right on the edge. Worth acquiring if you can find one.
rivet ll.jpg

rivet1.jpg

Nothing like a Beyer Peacock designed tender for riveting practice. I could have placed the rivets even closer together but that would have resulted in more rivets than the prototype. This is 1:48 scale.
rivetr.jpg
rivet t.jpg
 

AndyB

Western Thunderer
As all of the riveting tools shown above (GW, Reynolds / Metalsmith and LL) work in essentially the same way (pushing a stake into a die), is it the tool that makes a difference on how much the metal distorts?
I can see potentially 2 variables in the tools - how fast the stake is lowered and with what force (but this is highly influenced by the user), and the detail shapes of the stakes & dies.
The choice of material will clearly be a significant factor.
Has anyone done any side-by-side tests to see if the tool makes a difference, and if so, how & why?

Andy
 

adrian

Flying Squad
As all of the riveting tools shown above (GW, Reynolds / Metalsmith and LL) work in essentially the same way (pushing a stake into a die), is it the tool that makes a difference on how much the metal distorts?
I can see potentially 2 variables in the tools - how fast the stake is lowered and with what force (but this is highly influenced by the user), and the detail shapes of the stakes & dies.
The choice of material will clearly be a significant factor.
Has anyone done any side-by-side tests to see if the tool makes a difference, and if so, how & why?
I'd be interested in any details - when my Dad was making his rivet tool the punch was a simple taper with a slightly rounded tip, the die had a simple U shape drilled in to using a rounded centre drill. Looking at the the Leaky and other riveters the shape is a little more complex. Often wondered if drilling a hole in the die would work better so the rivet is formed from the shape of the punch rather than the shape of the die.

I do find on my riveter using a hammer to tap out the rivets, so if you give 'em a quick short, sharp, shock, they tend to be cleaner than pressing out by hand on a lever.
 

Daddyman

Western Thunderer
I've been pretty disappointed with the GW riveter. While it's fine when used to press out pre-marked rivets, it's supposed to have an indexing system which allows you to set out rivets wherever you want them. However, after struggling for years trying to work out why I couldn't get lines of rivets parallel to an edge or at right angles to each other using the indexing, I found that this is a well-known flaw in the design; turns out the clamp/ head unit on some is not at right angles to the longitudinal indexing spindle (if that makes sense!). While it's relatively easy to correct (can't remember what the hack was, but it's detailed on one of Mike Edge's threads on RMW), it's still annoying that you have to resort to that on an expensive bit of kit.
 

Brian McKenzie

Western Thunderer
Often wondered if drilling a hole in the die would work better so the rivet is formed from the shape of the punch rather than the shape of the die.

Yes, can confirm that Adrian. A plain hole is all that is required for the die, with very little rounding of the punch point.

Cabside rivets_3736.jpg

To avoid sheet distortion, where rivet heads are closely spaced, I've placed a small piece of slightly soft UHMWPE plastic (cut from the wife's kitchen chopping board :) ) over the punch - with the punch point protruding only slightly. This presses down on the sheet, keeping it flat, while the punch does its business.

Can be seen here in use with my machine riveting process, but I'm sure its equally applicable to the various manual tools.

-Brian

 

Tony Overton

Western Thunderer
I've been using a Metalsmiths rivet press for a while. If the depth stop is adjusted properly, and kept tight, it does create reasonably nice looking rivets. I say reasonably because if I'm not careful some tend to be a touch too pointed for my liking, creating more of a conical than the domed headed rivet I need. This I put down to the stake being too pointed. Being hardened steel I've found it impossible to file back so as to take the tip off. Also, if the depth stop works loose the pointed stake will, whilst creating a rivet, drive through half etched brass 'rivet dimples' leaving rivets with tiny holes in them! I am considering asking some one who could turn me up a replacement stake with a less pointed tip, though doing this I may also need to look at the anvil too.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Tony @Tony Overton ,

The side effect of "pointed punch" used with vigour is just as you describe... about ten years back I discussed this with the late Paul Penn-Sayers (RIP) and he suggested making new punches with a round tip. As good as his word - and his idea - I was presented with a couple of such altered punches and those punches produce a more rounded "rivet head" and without tearing the half-etch metal. I think that Bob Lumley (@Silverystreaks) was also supplied with some round tip punches for the Metalsmith unit.
 

markjj

Western Thunderer
I have rounded off several of my punches and dies by using a diamond covered file spinning the punches either in a lathe or simple battery hand drill.
I have the GW and Metalsmith rivet tools but I keep the Metalsmith one only for the odd 16mm things that I sometimes fiddle with.
 

Tom Mallard

Western Thunderer
Yes, can confirm that Adrian. A plain hole is all that is required for the die, with very little rounding of the punch point.

View attachment 149015

To avoid sheet distortion, where rivet heads are closely spaced, I've placed a small piece of slightly soft UHMWPE plastic (cut from the wife's kitchen chopping board :) ) over the punch - with the punch point protruding only slightly. This presses down on the sheet, keeping it flat, while the punch does its business.

Can be seen here in use with my machine riveting process, but I'm sure its equally applicable to the various manual tools.

-Brian

You really do know what you're doing! Impressive and evolved techniques that have a lot of understanding of the materials built in as well as the process. I will try harder.

I use the Reynalds type tool. I often resort to incremental embossing of high relief or larger rivets to limit distortion of surrounding metal and to check as I go that I'm getting it about right. It is a bit time consuming but works well enough when there's numerous sizes or variation in prominence. In addition to the different dolls, I have a number of different size punches - sharp points for tiny rivets through to domed parallel sided ones for heavy or countersunk representations.

Tom
 
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Brian McKenzie

Western Thunderer
. . . . Impressive and evolved techniques that have a lot of understanding of the materials built in as well as the process. . . . .

Thanks Tom, but occasionally there are frustrating lessons to learn.

A prominent feature of the wagons I model are clusters of six rivets on headstock channels, where each solebar connects. I'd made the channels and angle steel shapes by milling from extruded brass bar, as it cuts so much more easily then rolled sheet or plate.

However, when it came to embossing rivet heads in the brass of extruded origin, disaster - roasted chestnut rivets!
IMG_7372a.jpg

Several new punches were tried, having a variety of different end angles and rounded/pointed ends - but to no avail.

Subsequent tests of these punches in brass and nickel-silver sheet metal showed no problem, and rivets heads formed well and didn't peel open. Then knowing how ductile copper is, some new channel was milled from 3mm thick sheet. Despite the copper becoming quite tough from work-hardening during the machining, rivet heads embossed easily without any need to anneal the copper.

IMG_7394a.jpg

More channel was then milled from 1/8" brass plate, and this too, also embossed well. A check of metal grades and material usage recommendations in suppliers catalogues revealed why this should be.

To get the punch to fit inside the legs of the headstock channel, and to ensure good alignment of rivet heads, a jig was made to keep all tidy. The diameter of the punch is only 1.6mm below its shoulder. A short collar is slipped over this reduced diameter, which by adjusting its length, controls the height of the rivet head produced, when using a drill press.
Rivet jig for headstock channel.jpg

-Brian McK.
 

Tony Overton

Western Thunderer
Having the equipment, and knowing how to use it, certainly helps produce better components for our modelling work. I'm rather jealous .........:D
 

Tom Mallard

Western Thunderer
Thanks Tom, but occasionally there are frustrating lessons to learn.

A prominent feature of the wagons I model are clusters of six rivets on headstock channels, where each solebar connects. I'd made the channels and angle steel shapes by milling from extruded brass bar, as it cuts so much more easily then rolled sheet or plate.

However, when it came to embossing rivet heads in the brass of extruded origin, disaster - roasted chestnut rivets!
View attachment 168230

Several new punches were tried, having a variety of different end angles and rounded/pointed ends - but to no avail.

Subsequent tests of these punches in brass and nickel-silver sheet metal showed no problem, and rivets heads formed well and didn't peel open. Then knowing how ductile copper is, some new channel was milled from 3mm thick sheet. Despite the copper becoming quite tough from work-hardening during the machining, rivet heads embossed easily without any need to anneal the copper.

View attachment 168232

More channel was then milled from 1/8" brass plate, and this too, also embossed well. A check of metal grades and material usage recommendations in suppliers catalogues revealed why this should be.

To get the punch to fit inside the legs of the headstock channel, and to ensure good alignment of rivet heads, a jig was made to keep all tidy. The diameter of the punch is only 1.6mm below its shoulder. A short collar is slipped over this reduced diameter, which by adjusting its length, controls the height of the rivet head produced, when using a drill press.
View attachment 168231

-Brian McK.
Fantastic information, Brian.

Yes, I too found that the grade or composition of brass has implications for embossing rivets, annealing has only a tiny effect on the free machining CZ121 type I commonly use. I suppose a rolled piece of material must have different processing requirements to an extruded bar, hence the different behaviour when we work it.

Using copper is an interesting work around but I've not got enough experience working with it to consider using it.

Tom
 
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