2022 AGM Wagon build competition categories

[Marc Dobson]

This might sound like a silly question but I'm going to ask it anyway

There are 2 categories Scratch Built (not commercially available parts) and Kit built. Which category would a 3D printed wagon body come into if it was not on sale to the public?

I'm asking this from a personal view as as most people know I manufacture wagon kits a s a job.

Marc

 

[Eastsidepilot]

I'd say it was a kit purely because the body is not made from separate components, much like a plastic kit the body sides and ends are usually moulded with all the strapping etc. on it. It's been made by a machine
I've always considered the term 'scratch built' to mean something that has been constructed by hand from raw materials.


Col.

 

[michael080]

I am not sure if I agree with Col. Designing a model withCAD from scratch is a job that literally starts with an empty piece of paper, so the definition of scratch building would be fulfilled. The actual model materializes in a machine, but so does the flat sheet metal or castings used in traditional building.

Downloading a STL file and printing it would be more like kit building, I guess.

Michael

 

[daifly]

The problem is where does scratch-built become kit-built? If I design a photo tool for a wagon and send it for etching then the result is a home made kit. The same is true of a 3D printed wagon body.

My personal view is that if a wagon etc. is produced mostly from commercially machine-made items then it is a kit. This does not preclude a scratchbuilder from using commercially produced wheels, couplings, buffers etc, but the main body of the wagon should at least be built from raw materials.

It's a fair question Marc and I'll make sure the committee have a look at it and hopefully get an interpretive answer pronto.

Dave

 

[Eastsidepilot]

I believe the term 'scratch building' needs re-defining then, CAD produced models made on a machine are not what the majority, in my view, would describe as scratch building, a machine made product that is an accumulation of components, such as a wagon body is a kit.
If it's going to cause a problem for some people in a competition then I reckon you'll need another category for 3D produced models.
The action of creating a wagon body, for instance, by hand from raw materials is scratch building, the action of creating a wagon body, as a single component from CAD operated machines is not, it's knowing how to operate a computer programme.

Col.

 

[Allen M]

My I offer a comment as someone who has been round the model railway world for over 65 years (and had a few awards).
Kit built. - This is built from a reproducible source. This could be a casting (brass, white metal etc), etchings, injection molding, 3D printing. Whether these are sold to the public or not is immaterial they are 'machine' reproducible.
Scratch built. - Built from raw materials be that wood, card, plastic, metal or a mix of any/all. These could be sheet and/or section but would need to be measured and cut out to be used.
In the scratch building section there will probably be some items bought in, generally wheels and some small castings like buffers. These should be stated unless obvious to the judges.

Regards
Allen Morgan

 

[Tom Mallard]

We should definitely invent a dictionary definition to describe the process, and proceed to enshrine it in law, such as the nature and source of materials, whether the patterns for castings were made by the builder and so on? Pantograph milling machines should be outlawed as should etched parts of any kind. Perhaps the model should be hewn from solid? Castings should also be undertaken by the builder in their own foundry facility. That seems reasonable.

Maybe scratchbuilding should maybe be amended to just non-commerical or 'everthing else', or maybe a separate category for this to encompass what a lot of builders will be doing.

If their was a sarcasm emoji (maybe there is?) I would use it.

Tom

 

[Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen]

I believe the term 'scratch building' needs re-defining then, CAD produced models made on a machine are not what the majority, in my view, would describe as scratch building, a machine made product that is an accumulation of components, such as a wagon body is a kit.
If it's going to cause a problem for some people in a competition then I reckon you'll need another category for 3D produced models.
The action of creating a wagon body, for instance, by hand from raw materials is scratch building, the action of creating a wagon body, as a single component from CAD operated machines is not, it's knowing how to operate a computer programme.

Col.

Col,

I can see where you're coming from however I would argue that a 3d printer is a machine tool as is a lathe or milling machine. In each case the modeller produces or sources a drawing and then uses the machine to assist in making the components. Should we ban digital read-outs on lathes which greatly simplify repetitive tasks ?
The world of model making has really moved on and our definitions need to encompass modern technology.
I agree that its not easy to define but if a model has been designed and made by the modeller it is scratch-built, if it uses a majority of bought in components whether, etched, cast or printed its kit-built.

I'll fight you over it next Tuesday

all the best
Tim

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Col,

I can see where you're coming from however I would argue that a 3d printer is a machine tool as is a lathe or milling machine. In each case the modeller produces or sources a drawing and then uses the machine to assist in making the components. Should we ban digital read-outs on lathes which greatly simplify repetitive tasks ?
The world of model making has really moved on and our definitions need to encompass modern technology.
I agree that its not easy to define but if a model has been designed and made by the modeller it is scratch-built, if it uses a majority of bought in components whether, etched, cast or printed its kit-built.

I'll fight you over it next Tuesday

all the best
Tim

Drill bits at dawn Sir,
I can see the advantages of 3D print as a tool for producing components for producing a model, scratch building has traditionally been a form of model making involving turning raw materials into components to form the model. Yes we buy in castings and other parts pre-made such as buffers and air pumps etc. but these are individual parts often enhanced if needed. Mickoo of this parish is producing some very nice parts on the 3D printer and I see that as no different to using castings and if these components are used in a scratch build then all well and good.
But if we are going to produce 90% of the model as one lump with all the detail and separate components in that lump as one then to me that's not the skill of scratch building that's the skill of being able to manipulate a computer programme for a machine to knock out the model, there's no scratch building skill ! You might as well produce the whole model as a 3D print which to me is no different to a rtr jelly mould model, as accurate as it might be it's not built from scratch it's produced by a computer.

Col.
See you next Tuesday Tim

 

[adrian]

Drill bits at dawn Sir,
I can see the advantages of 3D print as a tool for producing components for producing a model, scratch building has traditionally been a form of model making involving turning raw materials into components to form the model. Yes we buy in castings and other parts pre-made such as buffers and air pumps etc. but these are individual parts often enhanced if needed. Mickoo of this parish is producing some very nice parts on the 3D printer and I see that as no different to using castings and if these components are used in a scratch build then all well and good.
But if we are going to produce 90% of the model as one lump with all the detail and separate components in that lump as one then to me that's not the skill of scratch building that's the skill of being able to manipulate a computer programme for a machine to knock out the model, there's no scratch building skill ! You might as well produce the whole model as a 3D print which to me is no different to a rtr jelly mould model, as accurate as it might be it's not built from scratch it's produced by a computer.

Col.
See you next Tuesday Tim

It really is a grey area - I don't honestly think there is a black and white answer on this. It's also one of the reasons I have been "competition" averse and have never submitted any competition entries. When we all just making stuff and being constructive I never see myself as trying to outdo or be better than anyone else. I make stuff because I enjoy doing so and always look to others for inspiration.

That said - on balance in this situation i think I am tending to Col's perspective on the issue. The deciding issue and point of differentiation for me is that once you have designed something in 3D cad to print out on your 3D printer then yes you have created your own individual bespoke item. The reason I'm not comfortable with defining this as a scratchbuilt item is that you can then send that 3D file to another modeller with a 3D printer and yes they still have to build it as a kit but they can replicate an absolutely identical copy without any design input.

I'm not decrying that input or diminishing it in any way. I like to consider myself as a scratchbuilder but I will use the best tools I can for a job, tried RSU's and pantograph millers but never got on with them. I now have a laser cutter and 3D printer to play with and having built several kits I'd like to return to scratchbuilding to make something unique.

At the end of the day to me it's a hobby and in the grand scheme of things rather inconsequential so I'm not going to lose any sleep about some competition and couldn't really care less about the definitions because I'm happy with my own meagre efforts. [stage direction : step off soap box!!]

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

I am a scratch builder.
At the moment I have two Victorian 4-4-0s under construction. Virtually everything is build from parts I have cut out from sheet nickel silver on my pantograph milling machine, I made the patterns, which the machine followed, from plastic card mostly twice full size but some bigger. Other parts, chimney dome etc I turned from brass rod. Today I made the cab internals and used a couple of castings, steam reverser and drivers brake valve, from lost wax brass parts which were cast, not by me, but from patterns I made. I also used a pair of water gauges from a commercial supplier, brass castings and very nice. The tenders are complete, all made the same way as the loco except the springs and axleboxes which I had commercially printed in plastic from a 3D drawing which I did. I would have used a whitemetal casting from my own pattern in a rubber mould which I made in a home made casting machine but the rubber mould was past its best!
I am a scratch builder!
Ian

 

[simond]

I’m with Ian here. My loco shed depended heavily on the acquisition of a laser, but I travelled to Aberystwyth, measured & photographed the prototype, drew it on CAD, bought sheet materials, rebuilt the laser, cut the parts out, glued the bits I cut together and painted them. I’d say it was scratch-built.

There are undoubtedly skills learned in using any hand or machine tool effectively, whether you twiddle the dials by hand or via a keyboard, and the skills acquired in marking out material are not so very different from those used in creating CAD drawings.

My view is that if you do want to create two categories, then “one-off“ and “machine assisted” might be the way to go - anything that can be replicated to a significant extent by the press of a button (CNC machine, or cash register) is not a one-off.

Better names may be possible, but if you decide to call only “one-off” models ”scratch built”, there may be some grumbles…

 

[Marc Dobson]

"One off" could be applied to 3D printing just as much as a plastic/brass sheet built model. Just because you can produce more than one doesn't mean that will happen. If it was a one off wagon then why would you want two?
I will admit they are to forms of model building but neither are commercial kit building. My original question was which category would they fit into.? The answer is, as far as I can't gather is neither.
What I'm building is something that isn't commercially viable to produce as a kit, the brakes are being bodged from parts from another kit and some of the fragile parts are being cut from scrap metal. But the body is being printed on my own machine.
If I was to suggest names for the catagories "Home Made" and "From commercially available kits". Just a thought?
Marc

 

[Eastsidepilot]

I believe that the term 'scratch built' has to be re-defined for those that care about it.
As Adrian says no one really gives a hoot about how we build our models as long as we are enjoying it for our own and others interests that's fine, no doubt Marc's wagon will look superb and be a very fine model as it will have all the fine detail etc. some parts drawn on the computer, but the bit that irks me about 3D printing is when we come to the difference between components made to build our one off, or several one off's, and one complete unit that incorporates many components and this is where I have an issue in calling it scratch built as apposed to anything else.

Masterpiece Models and Lea Marsh's Korean built locomotives, are all designed on CAD but start out as a kit of parts but we don't call then scratch built, the Chinese rtr jelly mould stuff is drawn on CAD but we don't call them scratch built.

Col.

Edit: Perhaps the term semi-scratch built is something we should consider ?

 

[simond]

Marc

As I said, in my opinion, anything that can be replicated to a significant extent by the press of a button (CNC machine, or cash register) is not a one-off.

Whether anyone actually does or not is irrelevant.

 

[Allen M]

Marc

As I said, in my opinion, anything that can be replicated to a significant extent by the press of a button (CNC machine, or cash register) is not a one-off.

Whether anyone actually does or not is irrelevant.

While difficult to explain that is what I was trying to indicate in my comment No 6

Regards
Allen

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

If I was to suggest names for the catagories "Home Made" and "From commercially available kits". Just a thought?
Marc

I make chutney and bake bread that is what you call 'Home Made'.
Ian

 

[Ian Smith]

I haven’t read every post on this thread, and as I model in 2mm scale don’t have an interest (apart from seeing the entries) in the competition per se.

However, I do hold an opinion on what constitutes a scratch built model. I have designed and had produced 3D printed wagons - Despite the fact that I produced the artwork (3D model) I do not consider the finished products scratch built.

Similarly I have drawn up (in cad) artwork for my own etched coach kits, and again I do not consider those to be scratch built either.

All of my locos however I do consider to be scratch built as I have cut and shaped pieces of metal, either with a fret saw and files or using a lathe / milling machine to produce components.

Contentious I know, and I can see that someone who has invested time and effort in produced a 3D printed model (or etched kit) would feel that they should be entitled to enter their model in a “scratch built” category, but in my humble opinion scratch building is the act of forming something from raw materials and assembling a set of home made parts into a whole. Obviously using some commercially available parts would need to be allowed and accepted as we rarely make our own motors or wheels anymore!
Ian

 

[Mike W]

as as most people know I manufacture wagon kits a s a job.

Marc

Doesn't that make you a professional builder and therefore disqualified anyway? The question of when is a scratch built model actually a kit has been around for decades and I guess the answer is that the judges's decision is final. If you are entering a competition organised by somebody else, then what do their rules say and if they are not clear then ask them? ... ... and then let us all know!

Mike

 

[Marc Dobson]

To answer your question, Mike, I don't know. Very nice of you to class me as a "Professional Builder" I don't think I'm in that category. I'm a retired Marine Engineering Officer who makes models that sometimes people buy.

But If I use my lathe to turn a loco boiler from thick tube or alternatively I could 3D print the boiler the result is the same and I have used a machine to accomplish the task either way. The definition being used would mean that all parts would have to be made by hand with no mechanical assistance at all. That means no lathe, mill rolling bars and no bought in items. If that is the case then that is fine the definition of "Scratch Built" is that. If the Definition of "Kit Built" is manufactured form a kit that is commercially available. That is fine. But coming back to my original question if the item does not fall into either of these categories ie a personal project that is not commercially available, and never will be, but has been produce with some mechanical "assistance" in its build where does it sit. It currently does not fit into either of the two categories. if people don't think that it is "Scratch Building" fine and its not a "Commercially Available kit" what is it?

Marc