7mm Stanier 3P 2-6-2

[P A D]

Looking good Peter - I like the bolts on the saddle. Tony

Thanks Tony. The punched rivets didn't cut it. Maybe we should both have done the same on the 4Ps? You could do it with rod, but the rivets are easier to locate. Actual bolts would be even better, but I don't have any.

Beautifully clean build as usual. The first loco of yours I came across was a BR Duke of Gloucester, and it inspired me to chop up a Hornby 4mm toy and add DOG etched smoke deflectors and front steps to a coach sheet even though I had no use for the finished loco. Since that time I have followed your progress building the more down-to-earth locos. The current Stanier Class 3 tank is a beauty.

Thanks Larry.
Nickel silver is much better than brass for not tarnishing it. That was the reason drawing instrument makers switched from brass. Then when chrome plating was readily available, they switched back to brass as it was cheaper to use, even with the extra cost of the plating. I remember you posted a picture of the 4mm Duke after you had weathered it. It looked superb. My own paint job fell a little short but was OK.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[P A D]

So with the boiler fitting sorted out I thought I'd sort out the chimney and top feed. This is the taller Laurie Griffin Ivatt class 2 chimney. It looks good in terms of the appearance but is about 3mm too tall.


And 12 quid worth of casting buggered up! After cutting, I removed 2.7mm from the upper half using a piece of tapered paint brush handle as an arbour to hold the part in the lathe chuck. It was finished off with files and Emery and a sleeve made from thin brass sheet to aid lining the parts up for soldering.


I used 220 solder for this so that I could solder the chimney in place with 145 . I clamped the parts in the vice, added a nice blob of solder with the iron, then refluxed and heated with the gas flame to run the solder around the joint.


And after cleaning up and fitting. Az can be seen, I've also made a start at knocking up the smokebox door. This started out as a 4F door before I spun it in the lathe. I've got the nice resin cast door that Mike included, but I thought it would be fun and more satisfying to make my own.

I tried a similar thing with the top feed by modifying a JPL models casting, but I'm not happy with it so will think again. The dome is just placed for the photo and won't be epoxied until the wash out plugs have been added.


And a view from the side. The boiler bands have also been added from strips cut from brass shim. A clear will be added to the one on the firebox.


The top feed doesn't look too bad from this angle, but from the side it's too spindly.




Cheers,
Peter

 

[dibateg]

Looking very good Peter -

Leicester Central was landed with handful of these poor steaming locos after midlandisation, I don't think they lasted that long and were soon abandoned near the shed.

Talking of imitation bolts, Nick Dunhill put me on to these from Germany:-

Imitation model bolts and bolts - GHW Modellbau

I've ordered some... before January 31st....

Regards
Tony

 

[P A D]

Thanks Tony.
I often wonder if a lot of these poor performers were as bad as they are made out to be. Either way, from a modelling point of view the prototype performance is irrelevant and like the 2 6 4s, they are very handsome engines. With new member John Johnson starting a new thread on the 2 6 4, there's a bit of a Stanier tank fest going on at the moment.

So leaving the upper works for now, I made a start on the pony trucks. Here are the cast springs/axle boxes from MOK. Rather than wait for Sanspareil to produce further stock, I rang Dave Sharp and asked if he had any spare from his 8F which is not available at ths moment. Being the obliging chap he is, he kindly sold me 2 pairs. The hole in the casting is too large for Slaters axles so a bush needs to be added. Luckily I had some with a small enough outside diameter to allow them to fit after opening up the axlebox holes with a taper reamer. Here's a before and after shot.


And all the bogie parts laid out for assembly. Note the half etch grooves on the underside of the arms on the A frame. These are for locating the the strips with the slope at one end. Looking at the GA, they should in fact fit centrally on the outer edge of the arms. I will drop Mike Edge a line in case he wants to modify the art work before producing his 4mm kit. I'm not sure how Mike built his trucks as the photos on his thread don't show it, but the holes in the side plate are just the right size for the axle after a touch with the reamer. This was useful in lining up the axle boxes for fitting to the outside faces.

First I assembled the echings using a glass plate and the axle to jig the parts and ensure all was square.

With the top hat bearings inserted into the axlebox, it was located onto the axle, held in the correct orientation with a pair of forceps over the spring and frame and the spring hanger brackets soldered to the frames. The top hat was then removed and the casting further soldered to fully fix it. This was repeated on the other side. Afterwards with the top hat removed, the frame holes were opened up with the reamer as the top hats provide all the bearing surface required. To just clear the wheels it was necessary to remove over 1mm from the outer face of the bearings in the lathe. Here the bearings are nos soldered in place.


As can be seen, the side plates are fixed to the edge of the arms, not the under side.


And a view of the underside. I will add additional detail as per my 2 6 4 build but I'm not going the whole hog.


And with the wheels in. By chance, two 6BA nuts locked on the screw provide a nice fit with no slop and space the pivot the correct distance from the mounting spacer, so the the A frame and pony frame are level.


There's plenty of clearance for the pony to swing as well. The cheesehead and nuts can be seen from this angle, but will be hidden when the brake gear and slide bars are on.


A view from the front shows the spring hangers can be seen so it's worth adding them.


I couldn't resist a quick shot with the rear pony wheel placed under the frames. Boys will be boys.

John Johnson, if you read this, please note that all the closely spaced rivets were punched with the GW 4mm anvil with no bother. In my opinion, if you use the 2mm anvil the rivets will be too small.


I had a reply to a PM I sent to Roger Scanlon and he is kindly sending me the spare top feed and dome castings from his Chowbent kit, as he built it as a domeless variant. Many thanks Roger.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[P A D]

Right, having spent some time on big Stan, it's back to little Stan.

I completed the rear pony truck this afternoon and like the front one, it was a bit labour intensive, due to how I decided to modify it.
On the front one, to ream out the holes in the axleboxes to take the top hat bearings, I had to hold the casting between two fingers and my thumb, which was quite slow. I couldn't see how else to do it, but today the penny dropped. As well as the small watchmakers vice, I have this bigger multi angle Stanley job. The jaws don't close so precisely as the smaller one, but it has a vertical and horizontal slot in each jaw. This allowed me to clamp the casting top and bottom in the grooves and lower the jaws so I could work with the reamer in front of me an parallel to the floor. Much easier and quicker, even allowing for unscrewing and turning the casting around so as to work the taped reamer from both sides.


Here's the front pony next to the David Andrew's 4P one, to which I added extra detail. The front plate on the 3P one should be flush with the edge of the side plates as on the 4P, but I suspect for ease of construction, Mike Edge went for a slightly recessed one in a half etch slot. I'll add a cosmetic one to the front and rear, along with the front side control spring and a simple representation of the bolster plate on top.


Here's the pair of 3P ponies together. The rear mounting plate is lower than the front one, so only one nut is required to space it. I added a drop of superglue to lock it.




Here they are located on the chassis. On the prototype, the rear truck does not have an A frame. It's more of a U shape to clear the brake cylinder and bracket. I was going to scratch that up but I've decided to keep it simple, as when it's on the track, all the time and effort to do it, wont bring much to the party. If it was a complete kit with all the parts then I would do it, but I'm quite happy being a "I can't see it and I know it's not there" modeller. Plus, its bound to create clearance issues on the curves.


And on the rails.


And with the body on. The rear truck needs a washer on the screw to level it and possibly the front as well.


Some tweaking of the guard irons is needed but I'll do that after I've added a washer, as that will raise the end or the irons.


For what is just a test etch, it's going together nicely.











Cheers,
Peter

 

[AJC]

Very impressive for what, as you note is basically a test etch, but I’ve built enough of Mike’s designs in 4mm not to be surprised. I’ve got a bit of a soft spot for those - heroically underboilered - 3Ps, but not quite enough to want to build one myself, even if one did get dropped on the S&DJR for a bit (there’s a few pics of it at Templecombe, doing not a lot).

Adam

 

[P A D]

The dome and top feed that Roger Scanlon offered me arrived today, so many thanks to Roger for sending them so quickly. I didn't get much time at the bench today, but did manage to fettle up and epoxy the dome in place, after first soldering the washout plugs to the boiler.
The top feed is just placed for the photos, as I want to add the cover plates for the feed pipes under the boiler cladding first.


I think the dome could do with being slightly flatter on top, but I couldn't fettle the bottom face any more without losing the rim at the rear. The top feed looks perfect being much chunkier than the modified JPL casting that I've dumped.


Cheers.
Peter

 

[P A D]

Continuing with the boiler, I made some overlays from thin brass sheet to represent the covers on the cladding for the feed pipes to the clack valves. After soldering them in place the top feed was then added with epoxy resin. There's some pitting on the dome casting that will need some filler before painting.




From there I moved on to finishing the smoke box door. It started out as a 4F door which I turned down to the correct diameter and removed the straps. Today, I made the new straps and hinges from 10 thou nickel silver. Here they are after soldering in place. The straps were made first and then soldered to the hinge pin followed by the remaining detail. The straps were then tinned with 145 and sweated onto the white metal, only touching the outer face of the straps with the iron. Mike Edge gave me a nice resin casting for the door, which I could have used, but I fancied having a go at making my own in metal. Not perfect, but I'm pleased with the result.

Here it is temporarily held in place with a drop of super glue. I'll do it properly later with epoxy, as I ran out of time today.


The handles are from Laurie Griffin and the lamp iron is a spare from the MOK 4MT. The handrail "plugs" at each end are 0.9mm OD/ 0.7ID brass tube. The rail is made over long and first soldered to the brass knobs spaced in the holes on the door. It's then removed and a short piece of tube is pushed onto the rail at either end, spaced to where the plug should be. This is then soldered, snipped and filed to the required length and then the completed rail fixed to the door with super glue.


I really must adjust the edge of the saddle to close that gap at the smokebox! The middle fixing bolts are omitted as they will be hidden by the steam pipes.


I'll need to make the covers for the snifting valves either side of the frames on the front running plate, as these are not included in the echings. Once they are done I can add the footsteps that sit above them.




Cheers,
Peter

 

[P A D]

Looking at the various reference photos in books, magazines and the internet, I decided that it would be more appropriate to have two oil pots ( a 4 and 2 feed) on the tank fronts. Removing the 4 feed pots was quite straight forward, but refitting them and a 2 feed pot was not going to be easy. At least while the boiler is only screwed on, I could get that out of the way. In the end, I decided to solder the oil pots to a strip of 10 thou nickel silver and then epoxy this to the tanks. The feed pipes were then bent around and soldered to the inside of the tank. Fortunately, the ones on the 4 feed were long enough to allow for repositioning without have to replace them.


I have also added most of the remaining details to the boiler. The wash out plugs on the boiler are spares from MOK, the two cover plates spare Gladiator etchings, the mud hole covers by Malcolm Mitchell and the firebox wash out plugs are 0.8mm square rod soldered to a strip of lead on the inside. Malcolm Mitchell suggests fitting the pressed copper covers by filling them with epoxy before placing on the firebox. When it part cures, the ooze can easily be cleaned off with scraper and cellulose thinners on a cotton bud. Once hardened, the epoxy prevents the covers from being crushed as they are quite thin. The firebox band cleat is by Peter Roles.


The smokebox handrails have also been fitted, with the end plugs added from tube. With the smokebox door still not permanently fitted, I was able to solder the handrail pillars from the inside so no cleaning up was needed.


At the rear the handrails have been added to the cab door opening. I've snipped them as close as possible to the pillar but will need to attack them with a burr to tidy up as I can't get a file to them.


And t'other side. The rear bunker plate has been filed to match the side plates in preparation for fitting the beading.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[Duncan Chandler]

Looking really good Peter, the two oil boxes for lubrication was more common with the engines without keyhole and with separate dome and top feed. Looking at the data you had tied yourself down to about 2 or 3 engines with the previous combination. It looks like the 4mm one will not be long now. Duncan

 

[P A D]

Looking really good Peter, the two oil boxes for lubrication was more common with the engines without keyhole and with separate dome and top feed. Looking at the data you had tied yourself down to about 2 or 3 engines with the previous combination. It looks like the 4mm one will not be long now. Duncan

Hi Duncan,
That was the conclusion I came to.

I didn't have much time this afternoon, but first on the agenda was the chimney. Looking af this image taken yesterday, I noted that the chimney is leaning to the left of the loco.


After checking it in the flesh, I took it off and repositioned it.


After that, I just had time to fettle up the steam pipes. As mentioned earlier, I have a pair of Chowbent cast brass Fowler 3P steam pipes which are a pretty good fit.

However, I thought it would be good to see how the etched ones faired before making a decision. They have half etched grooves on the inside to aid forming, but I thought if prudent to also anneal them. Before forming, I cleaned up the outside faces as I hate seeing discoloured annealed parts on the model. It's much easier while the parts are still flat. They needed more attention than the brass ones but they have fettled up nicely.


Here's a comparison with the brass one which is a little too tall, so I'm going with etched one. I'll need to make the riveted flanges top an bottom, but that's no bother.

This side is ready to fit.

But a little more fettling with Emery paper round the smokebox is needed this side.


Cheers,
Peter

 

[adrian]

Here's a comparison with the brass one which is a little too tall, so I'm going with etched one

Without reference to the prototype photo the brass looks too "fat" as well. The etched one looks right to me.

 

[P A D]

Hi Adrian,
Looking at prototype photographs, the pipes appear wider and flatter on the outside face in some, and thinner and rounded in others.

This image from the book "Gresley and Stanier, A Centenary Tribute" would suggest that the brass pipes are better for width if not profile. I may reheat the etch ones and see if I can flatten the outside face a little which should spread the sides and give a wider impression.

This is an interesting photo and being in works grey highlights the details. Of note is the position of the rear tank stay which is in front of the middle washout plug as per the GA drawing, the safety valves are on a relatively thick base plate, round plate on the cylinder cover and original narrow chimney. The shape of the dome appears quite rounded compared to anything seen in service and only one washout plug on the boiler. The top feed that Roger Scanlon sent me looks spot on though.
Cheers,
Peter

 

[P A D]

I've splayed out the sides of the steam pipes a little and they look better, but are still only placed for the photo.


In the cab, attention turned to sorting the issue of the rear drivers touching the underside of the raised footplate. A slot was first made to clear the wheels using a dental burr and file.


A piece of scribed plasticard has then been glued to the floor and this covers the slot and is clear of ghd wheel flange. I've left the gap to the raised part 0f fhd frames as this will hardly be seen with the roof on.


The cab doors were also added whilst working in this area, and apart from the backplate and reverser, that only leaves the seats to be fitted.


And behind the cab, the footstep on the inset had been fitted. This should have a front piece, but rather than try fitting a strip of metal, I'll just add some filler.


Attention then turned to the tank straps and fire iron brackets. Using some small etched washers to pack the stays, I have been able to solder them in place and still remove the boiler. There's a slight gap to the boiler, but after painting I will glue a small piece of black plastic card to the ends. This will look like the bracket on the boiler and will close the gap. The forward fire iron is a conventional U bracket made from flat strip. The rear one, as pointed out by Dibateg in his 4P build, is two prongs with a circle on top. These were made from 0.8mm NS rod annealed at one end and a flat made be squeezing in the vice. A hole was then drilled in the flat and the edges rounded with a file anc emery paper. The prongs were then soldered into holes drilled in the tank top.


And a couple of wider views to finish.


The steampipes are just placed for now.


Cheers,
Peter

 

[paulc]

Hi Peter , thats going together really nicely . I must say thankyou for moving the chimney over , i noticed but wasn't going to say anything not wanting to be the harbinger of bad news . Its something that stands out like the proverbial dogs whatsits and spoils a good loco , i spend a lot of time with squares on plate glass to make sure the chimney sits correctly and the hinge straps on the door are horizontal.
The black and white photo belayed my fear that the footplate was kicked up at the front .
Cheers Paul

 

[P A D]

Hi Peter , thats going together really nicely . I must say thankyou for moving the chimney over , i noticed but wasn't going to say anything not wanting to be the harbinger of bad news . Its something that stands out like the proverbial dogs whatsits and spoils a good loco , i spend a lot of time with squares on plate glass to make sure the chimney sits correctly and the hinge straps on the door are horizontal.
The black and white photo belayed my fear that the footplate was kicked up at the front .
Cheers Paul

Hi Paul,
Much as it is frustrating to find items not properly located or positioned, I'd rather it was mentioned if spotted. Depending on what it is, where located and the ease of correcting, I can then decide if I can, or wish to redo it. Funny how you mostly spot the errors in the photos not in the flesh! I recall reading an article by Malcolm Mitchell on improving your kitbuilding in MRJ, where he advocated taking lots of photos of the finished model from all angles, then studying them to see if there were any errors.

Although not mentioned during my 4P build, Tony Geary highlighted a number of areas in his thread where I could have done better with mine. Fortunately it's not painted and I can still alter things. I've already shortened the overhang at the front of the running plate and will change the roof fixing to Tony's new system which definitely gets the . I intend to replace the mudhole covers with Mr Mitchell's and I also need to change the rear fire iron bracket to match the rear one on the 3P. Thanks again to Tony for highlighting that.

Speaking of roof fixings, I had a bit of time at the bench this morning and made a start on the roof. Before that though, I wanted to get the cab seats in as the lower fixed part of the roof would make that more difficult. The seats are from Finney 7 and can be made workable, although I chose to fix them in the down position. The seat is 2 laminates that when joined are clipped into the hinge bracket. This has some half etch rivets either end, but after punching one end it had distorted the frame, so I straightened it in the vice which crushed the rivets. Nog being that visible, I decided to omit them. With the cab on its side, the seats were epoxied in place, which allows time for adjustment and is easier than soldering. The roof edge pieces have been tacked in place pending fettling of the main roof piece to fit.


Here's a coupled of shots with the roof in place. Works a treat and far better than anything I've tried before.


As with Tony's 4P, the edges of the main roof section need trimming to get it to sit down fully, but time ran out. I don't have any 2 X 1mm L section so am using a strip of 2mm for the fixing and will add a length of 1mm for the rain strip.


Cheers,
Peter

 

[P A D]

So after trimming the sides and a little manipulation to adjust the shape, the central section of the roof sits down nicely.

1mm strip was added to the edge of the 2mm to represent the rain strip. I must get some 2 x 1mm L section for doing the 4P




And with the ventilator added.



Next the driving wheel springs. I made a template first and then clamped the other 5 strips of plasticard together in the vice and cut out the basic shape with the piercing saw. These were then super glued to thr inner face of the etched springs and when set, shaping began. I used a combination of files, cutting disc and dental burr to remove excess plastic and achieve the required profile.

After compling the springs I was then able to make a start on the brake rigging. To fit the middle and rear springs I had to remove the ash pan which I had made too wide. Here the springs are completed, the new ash pan is in place, brake hangers fitted and a start made on the cross beams and pull rods. These latter items are being made from scratch as they were not included in the etchings.



A blanking piece has been added behind the holes in the frame in front of the rear driver, but the brake hanger brackets have yet to be fitted.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[P A D]

Hi Peter , thats going together really nicely . I must say thankyou for moving the chimney over , i noticed but wasn't going to say anything not wanting to be the harbinger of bad news . Its something that stands out like the proverbial dogs whatsits and spoils a good loco , i spend a lot of time with squares on plate glass to make sure the chimney sits correctly and the hinge straps on the door are horizontal.
The black and white photo belayed my fear that the footplate was kicked up at the front .
Cheers Paul

Hi Paul,
I omitted to reply to your comment re the front footplate. It's a mix of optical illusion and kicking up! When the boiler is off it's quite flexible at the front and prone to flexing. That's the drawback of having it removable to aid painting. When it's painted, I'll ensure its straight after the rebuild, although I may add another fixing at the front to keep it tight to the frames.
Cheers,
Peter

 

[P A D]

This afternoon I made the shackles for the center cross beam and fitted the pull rods. The gear is just an interpretation rather than an accurate representation, but will pass muster tucked away under the loco.


The brackets for the brake hangers have also been added and the superfluous holes for the compensation pivots between the 1st and 2nd driver, and rear driver and rear pony wheel, filled in. The slidebar bracket parts have been laminated and slotted loosely into the frames.


The superfluous holes were filled with 1.2mm NS rod soldered in place, the excess snipped flush with the frames and then cleaned up. The rear hole was behind the oval aperture and the rod has been left uncut between the frames as it adds a little extra bracing.

And the one between the 1st and 2nd drivers.

As mentioned earlier, the rear truck on the prototype has a U frame rather than an A frame as on the front truck, but the etchings came with two A frames. I prefer not to go to the trouble of making the U frame for for read truck, but this presents difficulties with the fitting of the brake cylinder and and crank. Using the truck as it comes does not allow room to fit a brake cylinder or the large brackets for the brake crank. Also, with the rear pull rod being central, it coincides with the pony truck pivot screw. This latter issue can be easily overcome but some though will need to be given as to how I can represent the brake cylinder and crank so that it looks OK when viewed on the rails. Making a U frame for the truck may be the only option. I'd be interested in seeing how it's done on the Chowbent kit, if anyone who has built one would be kind enough to post a picture (Mr. Scanlon perhaps). In this view the rod used to plug the superfluous frame holes can also be seen.


This low angle view shows the tight fit of the roof using Mr. Geary's fixing method.


While I consider the solution to the chassis rear problems, I moved on to buffers and fettled up the castings. They are from NMRS Models in Northampton and are really nice castings, needing only a whizz with the wire brush to clean them up. Whilst not as good as a self contained buffer, the screws used are only 14BA so much less obtrusive than the larger 8BAs seen with many offerings. On the prototype, the buffers had a backing piece which is provided in the etchings, albeit they are too large and needed a fair it of fettling to reduce there dimensions. I'll solder the backing plates to the buffer beams and then epoxy the buffers.


Cheers,
Peter

 

[P A D]

So after further fettling of the base plates to reduce their size, they were soldered in place using a length of steel rod to line them up on the buffer beam. After cleaning up the excess solder the buffer castings were then epoxied the base plates. Here they are ready for the buffer heads.


And the rear ones.


Here's some views with the buffer heads in place and the body back on the chassis.


Looking the part now


The etchings for this model were derived from the development of a 4mm version by Mike Edge and one of several corrections that Mike needs to make is the inclusion of the motion brackets for mounting the expansion link to the top of the slide bar bracket. I was aware of this when I purchased the etchings and Mike provided a printed template to make the missing parts. To start with, I cut a strip of 15 thou nickel silver and then cut 4 lengths for making the motion brackets. These were soldered together so that the cutting and filing would only need doing once. Here's the template with a cut out piece glued to the NS laminate. In this view, the fitting tab has already been filed and the pivot hole drilled through.


Here's the 4 pieces after fettling to shape and separating. The two pieces that will show on the outside each side have had the detail added with 220 degree solder. Hopefully, nothing will fall off during subsequent soldering with 145!


Similar templates have been provided for the driving wheel balance weights, which were also missing from the test etches, but making these will be an easier kettle of fish.


I've still to make the riveted surrounds for the steampipes, so these are still loose. A further benefit from having the lower roof separate from the main section and soldered to cab, is that the beading can be added as per the prototype and run from the roof apartures down each cab side in one piece.


Cheers,
Peter