4mm An EM Workbench: Mineral allsorts

[AJC]

Roight! I'm with @Pugsley and @Overseer on this and, having re-reviewed the Castledine picture, I'm of the view that the background of the lettering is the same as neighbouring hopper - see below:



The band certainly doesn't match the loco's buffer beam (which near contemporary shots in colour show to have been red). Thoughts before I rub down and start over on the band?

Adam

 

[Overseer]

While waiting for evidence to confirm what was actually done, I think red lettering on yellow is more likely. Presumably Charringtons paid to have the wagons painted to stand out from the rest of the BR fleet. Industrial yellows were (and are) common on earth moving equipment so durable yellows were readily available. It doesn't seem logical to paint the hoppers wagon brown then paint the top part wagon grey as they would blend in rather than stand out, as well as look odd.

 

[AJC]

While waiting for evidence to confirm what was actually done, I think red lettering on yellow is more likely. Presumably Charringtons paid to have the wagons painted to stand out from the rest of the BR fleet. Industrial yellows were (and are) common on earth moving equipment so durable yellows were readily available. It doesn't seem logical to paint the hoppers wagon brown then paint the top part wagon grey as they would blend in rather than stand out, as well as look odd.

Quite. Yellow would have faded relatively quickly of course. I've rubbed down and will reinstate once I've worked out what the scheme should be. Photographic research beckons - any and all input cheerfully received!

Adam

 

[hrmspaul]

Adam,
The Charrington's hopper looks good but was the lettering really black? I only have another published version of the photo at Mansfield Colliery you posted but the lettering looks paler than the wagon body colour, but darker than the band. I don't know if the livery changed at some point and don't really know the date of the photo. The caption to the version I have says 'late 1960s' but I think it is earlier based on the other wagons in the photo.
View attachment 60904
The 'old wooden wagons' in the background are described as 'a motley collection' even though the four wagons visible are all ex Midland Railway Diagram 673 wagons (9150 wagons built between 1913 and 1922). The 16T to the right is also interesting as it looks like a Diagram 1/102 still with its original pressed side and end doors (one of 20,000 ordered by the LMS and delivered between 1946 and 1949 all with B numbers rather than M). Combined with original style markings on the 16T wagons it all adds up to looking earlier than 'late 1960s'.

What is easily overlooked is that although there is a vacuum pipe around the hopper there are no pipes on the solebar and no sign of vacuum cylinders.

Paul Bartlett

 

[AJC]

What is easily overlooked is that although there is a vacuum pipe around the hopper there are no pipes on the solebar and no sign of vacuum cylinders.

Paul Bartlett

Easily overlooked, yes, but in this instance, noted and correctly modelled.

Adam

 

[AJC]

And here, I think, is an answer, from a picture by Gordon Edgar at Weetslade:

All sizes | Weetslade Coal Preparation Plant | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Note the hopper (LNER dia. 100) in the back right hand corner. The two tone finish is clear as is the boxed lettering on the brown (thank goodness) lower half replete with figure 5 in the square box to the right of it. If you squint, the middle letters of the Charringtons brand are just about visible in the centre panel, I reckon, red. My suspicion is that the band is a pale grey?

Adam

 

[Overseer]

And here, I think, is an answer, from a picture by Gordon Edgar at Weetslade:

All sizes | Weetslade Coal Preparation Plant | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Note the hopper (LNER dia. 100) in the back right hand corner. The two tone finish is clear as is the boxed lettering on the brown (thank goodness) lower half replete with figure 5 in the square box to the right of it. If you squint, the middle letters of the Charringtons brand are just about visible in the centre panel, I reckon, red. My suspicion is that the band is a pale grey?

Adam

Looks like bright red lettering on pale grey, not quite what I anticipated. I expect there would have been some nice colour transparencies taken when the coal concentration depots were set up for publicity purposes, but maybe not. Coal is just as black in colour photos as in black and white after all.

 

[AJC]

Looks like bright red lettering on pale grey, not quite what I anticipated. I expect there would have been some nice colour transparencies taken when the coal concentration depots were set up for publicity purposes, but maybe not. Coal is just as black in colour photos as in black and white after all.

I'd have thought so - and yes, I'm certain they'd have been colour transparencies as well: I just haven't seen them published. All this means is that I probably haven't looked in the right place: dad's collection of period magazines and other publications is a long way off. The coal trade press is probably more likely than the railway press anyhow, and I wouldn't know where to start with that. Anyhow, I do now know what colours it should be and have reawakened my interest in these large hoppers. I may have to do a couple more...

Adam

 

[Dog Star]

... The coal trade press is probably more likely than the railway press anyhow, and I wouldn't know where to start with that...

You can start by contacting Ian Pope who has a handle on the trade press for the coal trade generally and also the shipping of coal. Look on the Black Dwarf Lightmoor web site for contact details or PM me.

 

[AJC]

Since it's been dry and warm (for November), I've treated the 21 tonner to a waft of primer and it's underframe to a coat of muck; a brushed mix of Humbrol matt chocolate and metalcote gunmetal. The castings for this are also by @jjnewitt and are rather nice, easily the best rendition of BR-pattern roller bearings yet. While I was at it, I rubbed down and repainted the band on the 21 ton hopper. No picture of that yet...



There's a couple of bits to attend to but I'm reasonably pleased with it (and it's sprung rather than being soldered solid!).

Adam

 

[Peter Insole]

I'm not sure how to post a link to flickr, or what unintentional copyright issues I might infringe if I re-post it here, but I have just found a colour image of a Charringtons hopper on Geoffrey Tribe's flickr site!

The number of the pic is; 15884436063_5df21d9c01_o It is a downloadable image too!

Cheers,

Pete.

 

[AJC]

I'm not sure how to post a link to flickr, or what unintentional copyright issues I might infringe if I re-post it here, but I have just found a colour image of a Charringtons hopper on Geoffrey Tribe's flickr site!

The number of the pic is; 15884436063_5df21d9c01_o It is a downloadable image too!

Cheers,

Pete.

Ah, this one!

Denbigh Hall Hoppers by Geoffrey Tribe, on Flickr

Result! Thank you Pete!

Adam

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Nice photograph of an AL6.

 

[adrian]

I'm not sure how to post a link to flickr, or what unintentional copyright issues I might infringe if I re-post it here, but I have just found a colour image of a Charringtons hopper on Geoffrey Tribe's flickr site!

Strong is google-fu with this one!

 

[AJC]

Strong is google-fu with this one!

Pete's certainly done better than me on this one! A nice gallery of pictures that I hadn't come across to boot.

Adam

 

[AJC]

More plugging away at 51L's 1/166 hopper. I think I've reached the end of soldering for the moment without the risk of damaging what I've already done; it's time to start on the epoxy...



At the vac' cylinder end (I've straightened the lever and guide since), the cylinders themselves have been completely replaced with examples from Rumney Models while the brackets have been knocked up from scratch. The rod between the paired cylinders is a pragmatic decision since I couldn't easily solder the cylinders to the piston rods. The latter are soldered on to the chassis, the cylinders drilled slightly oversize vertically and then cross-drilled allowing them to hang off the rod which fulfils the role of the trunnions either side of the real cylinders. All this is held in with epoxy. On the real thing, the hopper supports serve as brackets for the cylinders and will here but in the meantime, the rod serves the purpose. While I can't say that my work is in the Guy Williams or John Hayes league, it's a world away from the crude whitemetal lumps supplied.



The next step is to fettle, fit and fix the remaining brake parts, axleboxes and springs.

Adam

 

[AJC]

Taking a break from mineral wagons of various kinds and in the midst of a rather stressful couple of weeks at work, I've knocked up a Parkside Palvan on a Rumney Models chassis. There's nothing wrong with the chassis supplied, but I wanted an 8-shoe braked version.

I rather like Palvans, for all that they were a failure in their intended use. They represent transition in the post-war world in a way that almost no other railway vehicle does.

• They are thoroughly traditional, based on RCH spec's and dimensions and entirely in keeping with pre-nationalisation design philosophy in their size and the small-load, common carrier, ethos.
• There are hints at modernity in their construction: plywood sheeting and AVB from new
• And yet... the traffic they were built for was a new phenomenon, the early days of palletised, mechanically handled bulk goods. Going on the allocations, to places like Port Sunlight, this was in the form of washing powder and tinned products: it's notable that for similar traffics, such as motor car parts, were carried in hired in continental ferry vans
• Like much of the Modernisation Plan rolling stock, they were built in substantial numbers, often alongside or very shortly before vehicles properly realising the transformation that these techniques would realise. The vanwide, a near contemporary in design terms, was a much more successful, if still reactive design. The visual contrast is not quite as stark as the fitted 21 tonners (a late 19th century design idea) alongside the first of the MGR hoppers, but it was the extent to which the railway was behind the curve is every bit as striking.
• Finally, their failure - witness this pair condemned at Feltham in '68 - owing to the technological problems of getting short wheelbase running gear to cope with the uneven loading caused by the large hinged doors on opposing corners - ironically has led to the type being massively over-represented in preservation; their afterlife in stores and army service saw to that.

Adam

 

[AJC]

And here, after a few little bits and pieces, is the complete Palvan, ready for painting.



Other, already painted, wagons have got that bit further. The Charringtons hopper has inched forward and - shocking paint job apart (weathering will obscure those rough edges, I hope) now has its running numbers and is ready for the all important Charringtons brand.



Meanwhile, I've managed to completely letter and reassemble the flat-bottomed 21 tonner, using the original lettering style, just for a change. More weathering to do now...



Adam

 

[AJC]

I alluded to the backlog of weathering above and have now actually done something about it. To wit, one finished Hybar, by chance highlighting the side with the offset doorspring to accommodate the vac' cylinder:



And also, a second (third in this thread) Dogfish, in a slightly tidier state than the other, shown alone:



And with its fellow:



Consistent in detail, but the black handwheels are a nice feature of the real thing which I wanted to include. If the work's photos Paul Bartlett has in his galleries are anything to go by this is how many were released to traffic and how some, at least, remained for a spell.

Penderyn Limestone quarry South Wales April 1963 by John Wiltshire

Adam

 

[garethevans1986]

Do you use compensation on any wagons?