Black and White Colour Rendition

[Overseer]

Starting a new thread for the discussion of the appearance in colours in old black and white photographs, starting with this article from a 1925 Meccano Magazine.

Orthochromatic plates and film were just a step on the way to panchromatic film. An article in the October 1925 Meccano Magazine explains the situation at the time. Before orthochromatic film yellow, orange and red would show as black or dark while blue would be near white. Filters could be used to capture some of the colours but at the expense of others. Black daffodils anyone?

 

[Pencarrow]

Thanks for raising this as a separate thread.

Question from me to the more learned. Sometimes in older B&W images there are sections of brickwork that looks almost black. Far too dark too be engineering blue brick.

Any thoughts on this one? Was it really black brick, or a photo issue.

 

[Overseer]

Thanks for raising this as a separate thread.

Question from me to the more learned. Sometimes in older B&W images there are sections of brickwork that looks almost black. Far too dark too be engineering blue brick.

Any thoughts on this one? Was it really black brick, or a photo issue.

They could be black bricks if they are in a string course or decorative brickwork, unlikely to be black bricks in plain walls. In urban or industrial areas the bricks could be covered in soot, the mortar would also look black in that case. Or they could be red bricks registering as dark on early photographic plates. Not a very definitive answer.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Engineering blue bricks when new would appear almost pale grey/white as noted by @Overseer as Orthochrome film was not sensitive to blue edited as incorrect.

These two photos I posted in @Dog Star 's thread GWR Signal Box - type 7 - architectural drawings show how the colours render (also allowing for weathering over time).

I've downloaded two photos of Princes Risborough North Sigal Box as an example for illustrative purposes. One from the S W A Newton collection in the Leicestershire Archives and the colour one from Wikimedia. The S W A Newton photograph was taken when the GC&GW joint line was built via High Wycombe in the early 1900s



When looking at Orthochrome photographs it's worth trying to find a modern equivalent assuming the building still exists.

 

[oldravendale]

I can rarely if ever disagree with you Dave, but orthochromatic film is actually sensitive to blue and green. When I did my earliest photography qualifications I actually used "ordinary" film which is blue sensitive only and the earliest type of photographic emulsion in common use. Ortho came next and finally panchromatic which is sensitive to red, green and blue.

Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Thanks Brian - I've edited the offending sentence.

 

[Rob R]

Brian,
When I started at Ilfords in the late 70's an old hand (who had started in the 20's) explained it all to me in "easy thinking" terms.
The problem is that was the best best part of 50 years ago and the grey matter has leaked a bit since.
Thank you for reminding me.
I also had a detailed explanation of how the girls used to coat glass plates with photographic emulsion poured from a teapot (in the dark). The mind boggles at the thought of it but they used to do thousands every day.
Rob

 

[Pencarrow]

Engineering blue bricks when new would appear almost pale grey/white as noted by @Overseer as Orthochrome film was not sensitive to blue edited as incorrect.

These two photos I posted in @Dog Star 's thread GWR Signal Box - type 7 - architectural drawings show how the colours render (also allowing for weathering over time).

I've downloaded two photos of Princes Risborough North Sigal Box as an example for illustrative purposes. One from the S W A Newton collection in the Leicestershire Archives and the colour one from Wikimedia. The S W A Newton photograph was taken when the GC&GW joint line was built via High Wycombe in the early 1900s

View attachment 218745
View attachment 218744
When looking at Orthochrome photographs it's worth trying to find a modern equivalent assuming the building still exists.

Any idea what colour the signal cabin end door would be in the lower photo? The darker colour has come out as very black in the B&W shot - same sort of weird dark I've come across before. I can't believe it was actually black.

 

[magmouse]

Any idea what colour the signal cabin end door would be in the lower photo?

The door certainly is very dark in the photo - however, that is also true of the signal box interior, the uniforms of the staff, the tree in the distance, the shadow side of the sleepers in the foreground, etc. There is little to no detail in any of these shadow areas. This is presumably an official photo, and at that time (1900s) most likely taken on a glass plate negative - capable of very high resolution and capturing a wide range of tones. Those railway photographers were technically very capable, as can be seen when you get a well-digitised copy. With this picture, something has happened between the negative and what we see here to ‘crush’ the shadows and turn all the darker tones black. This scan may be from a print that was poorly made, or more likely is a poor scan of a good print. In general, each time you convert the image, the contrast goes up and you risk losing shadow and highlight detail, unless the conversion is done really carefully. Basic scanners tend to be poor at recovering shadow detail.

Add to all this that the door may have been rendered dark in the original photo because it was a reddish or brownish colour the negative was insensitive to, and you get the improbably black door we see.

Nick.

 

[Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen]

I've quickly run the photo through Lightroom and here's the result. Not great but shows more detail, the door looks to be a dark colour, blue, green, brown?

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The door is likely to be a reddish brown as noted by @magmouse - which was the one of the GW paint colours for doors. Unlikey to be blue as it would render pale like the engineering blue bricks.

 

[ChrisBr]

The door certainly is very dark in the photo

According to the 1907 Signalling Dept. Painting instructions we have the following "Doors, excepting panels which are painted No.1 Stone; Rain-water casks; Battery Cupboards Outside: Chocolate"

By contrast "Mullions; Fascia and Barge Boards; guttering and down pipes; Casements (Under portion) and Sills; Finials; Sills; Steps, Strings, Middle Rail and Newels: Stone No.3"

 

[Pencarrow]

A post moved from Richard's modelling thread, sits better here...

Would be very interesting to see a orthochromatic photo of a rainbow colour palette and a modern full colour shot side by side to see how the old B&W film 'sees' colours.

 

[Overseer]

A post moved from Richard's modelling thread, sits better here...

Would be very interesting to see a orthochromatic photo of a rainbow colour palette and a modern full colour shot side by side to see how the old B&W film 'sees' colours.

That would be useful but we really need a comparison of ordinary plates, orthochromatic plates/film, panchromatic film and colour. On top of the emulsion type you need to know which filters were used for each exposure. Landscape images were a dilemma as the filters to show the vegetation would white out the sky and filters to show the clouds would spoil everything else.

Even choosing the colour depiction for the comparison would be challenging as the standards seem to be disregarded, especially with todays phone cameras which have software to 'improve' the colours of selfies often to the detriment of reality.