Prototype Can anyone identify Where & When?

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Here's the last in the series from Darlington Shed.

69021. Darlington.  800dpi copy.jpg

69021 is clearly allocated to Darlington as can be seen from the 51A shed plate. However, the available records (and I'm conscious of the caveats, Mick), say that this loco was allocated to West Hartlepool (51C) from 19 August 1961 and withdrawn from there at the end of September 1963 before being cut up at Darlington North Road at the end of November 1963. Both the records I've read report the same which is pretty unusual. A third source confirms that 69021 was at Darlington on 1 May 1960 and 3 April 1961 and not at West Hartlepool on 9 July 1961 but was present on 26 August 1962 and 25 August 1963 but absent, as one would expect due to withdrawal, on 6 September 1964.

This suggests that the series of photos were taken before August 1961. I think that there may be some sense to this so I'm going through the history of all the identified locos - 68744, 69004, 69002, 69027 and 69022 to see if I can get some sort of coincidence regarding what was actually seen and where.

Brian
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
I think I have the date at somewhere around January 1961 to September 1961.

All the locos in the photos except 69002 were seen at Darlington Shed on 1 May 1960, including 69017 and two Class 03 diesels, Nos D 2079 and D2080. 69002 was transferred to Darlington on 7 January 1961 and on 3 April 1961 all the locos in these photos were recorded, at this time including 69007 and 69017 but with no 03 diesels present - there were 12 0-6-0 diesels other than 08s present at that time plus seven 08s. 68744 went for scrap in September 1961. In fact it's probably possible to narrow the date even further to between January 1961 and April 1961 in the absence of any 03s in the listing for 3 April although it is, of course, impossible to prove that they were not there. By 3 April there were a total of 19 diesels of one sort and another recorded by an observer, and the absence of any large number of diesels alongside the J72s suggests that the photos were at some time before this date.

I'm very confident in dating these photos as 1961, and I believe there's a strong possibility they are after January but before April of that year.

Brian

Edit: PS. I've just realised that 69002 is not wearing a shed plate. Notwithstanding Mickoo's comments about transfer dates and shed plates pretty well everything lines up with the published info, and if the published data is wrong it's demonstrably so. If this is the case the shed plate for Sunderland, where 69002 had been allocated has possibly been removed but the new shed plate for Darlington has not been attached. Whilst circumstantial this would suggest an even tighter dating, potentially actually to January 1961.
 
Last edited:

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Here's a nice portrait of Britannia 70002, Geoffrey Chaucer. This has been Photoshopped from a very underexposed negative. Fortunately this was in a large format so the excessive grain does not become too apparent.

70002.  Location and Date Unknown.  800dpi.jpg

Shedplate is for 31B, March, but looking at photos of March Shed I can see no yard lamps which match those in this photo. According to my usual source the loco was allocated to March from 31 March 1961. It was transferred away to Carlisie Kingmoor in December 1963. Contemporary records show that 70002 was not at March on 10 April 1960 but was there on 24 September 1961 and still present in July 1963. The shed closed from December the same year. Data suggests that electrification flashes did not start to appear until 1959 and were not widespread until 1961 or so, which helps date this photo.

Does the Engineers' vehicle on the adjacent track to the loco help with location? It's easily identifiable as DE320916 and lettered as L.T.M.E. King's Cross. To my mind there's something a bit strange about that if the location is indeed March as I'd have thought the major shed for March would be Stratford to which engineering vehicles may well have been attached. In fact I was wondering whether this could be a works location when I came across this RAILSCOT | Query3146 | Britannia Pacific no 70002 <I>Geoffrey Chaucer</I> on shed... where? which seems evidence enough that the location is Doncaster, particularly in view of the Britannia behind 70002 which has a short name plate and matches the one behind the loco in my shot and the point levers which are in the same position in both shots. Frustratingly I can find no data about the date of a visit to Doncaster by the loco in 1961, although there is a contemporary record for it's presence there in 1958 which is too early for this shot. Is there a "Book of the Britannias"? If so does anyone have this data?

Brian
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Location is Doncaster running shed.

70002 Shopped
19/8/61 - 23/8/61 Non Classified
24/5/62 - 25/7/62 General Overhaul
30/7/62 - 1/8/62 Non Classified

Why it went back for a NC just five days after a general is not explained, perhaps some faults on the running in turns after the general?

What is interesting is that it should of had AWS and speedometer fitted at Stratford on the 5/2/60 - 25/3/60 General Overhaul, I know the picture is dark but it does look like the AWS is not fitted at this stage.

The engine behind can only be 70011 Hotspur , short name, shopped at Doncaster and correct style of deflector.

70011 Shopped
30/4/62 - 22/6/62 General Overhaul
3/7/62 - 12/7/62 Non Classified
25/7/62 - 2/8/62 Adjustment

Again, a week later it is back for a Non Classified after the General and two weeks later for Adjustments.

Looking at the drivers side piston valve, it looks like the cover is off so that probably puts it in the Adjustment period and probably not requiring a works visit so the running shed would suffice with fitters sent over from the Plant.

70002 looks nice and clean after a General, there's a little staining on the cylinder cover and the firebox base looks dis-coloured. The date could be the 25/7/62 when 70002 was released to traffic following the general and 70011 was admitted in for the Adjustment, but given the staining noted above I'd opt for 70002 Non Classified visit, which puts the date around the 30/7/61 - 1/8/62....as a ball park rough guess.

GEML Britannia's started to migrate away from Norwich and Stratford in mid 61 when the diesels really took hold of services, quite what services they ran from March I don't know, perhaps some Kings Lynn to London services for a short while.

Dang, I do like my Brit's !

MD
 
Last edited:

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
...... well, to get it within a year is remarkable in my book.

Thanks for your research, Mick.

The next one is a Brit as well.

Brian
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Here's the one especially for Mick. Again from an exceptionally underexposed negative. I'm constantly amazed at the amount of information which can be extracted from negatives which would have been considered pretty well unprintable if using conventional photographic paper. Shame about the fogging in the top right hand corner too, although it doesn't detract significantly from the value of the image.

It's Britannia 70033, Charles Dickens, I believe probably at Doncaster Works, subject to confirmation.

70033.  Poss Doncaster.  800dpi.jpg

Frankly it looks pretty derelict and I started by wondering if this was a scrapyard picture. However, the smokebox in front of the Britannia clearly still has the number and shedplate attached and I believe these would have been removed. The Britannia itself still has it's nameplate and that would most certainly not have been present. Therefore I am assuming that this is a works shot. Dating this shot would be a bit difficult, but there are some helpful clues. The smokebox door is plainly from a WD and the number is 906-2. The partially hidden number appears to be a 3 or 8. Fortuitously the shed plate remains on the door and it's 26B, Agecroft. For the sake of avoiding the possibility of misidentification I went through all the possible combinations of 906-2 at Agecroft Shed.

I established that 90632 was recorded at Agecroft on 14 June 1959 and 4 September 1960. It was not present on 12 January 1958 or previous to that date. There were no other WDs with a number 906-2. Regrettably I can find no information about allocations at Agecroft after 1960. Information about the WDs is notoriously sketchy, but further research confirms, from a single source, that 90632 went to Springs Branch 17 October 1964 and then to Aintree at the end of January 1965. Two sources confirm that it was withdrawn from there in May 1965 . The same two sources agree that it went to Cashmore's Great Bridge for scrapping which happened in August 1965.

I wonder whether your evidence, Mick, may suggest that 70033 was in Doncaster works at the putative time we have for 70002, above, as this would make sense if the photographer took more than the single photo we've looked at previously.

In a few days a better exposed shot of 73000 also, I believe in Doncaster Works, will follow. There's also another underexposed photo of 70053 with a 55A Leeds Holbeck shed plate but I'm of the belief that this is not at Doncaster, particularly as there have already been some shots around Leeds Holbeck which we've looked at previously.

Brian.

Edit - Looking through the cab of the Brit another cab can be seen behind it. It looks as though this could be a WD cab, so maybe 906-2?
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
I'll check when I get home but I'm almost 100% this is Crewe works and I think 70033 was a LMR engine through out. I'll know for sure when I get home to my Crewe works books and reference material. If I'm right then this'll be the start of one of Crewe's famous 'belts' the engines entered off the traverser behind the loco and began the strip down process. At a given time each week the whole belt moved one engine forward to the next bay, each bay being specialised in one function only.

As the engine moved down the belt work progressed so that at the other end of the building complete engines were spat out and then moved to the paint shop. From there they went to light firing over in the original LNWR Crewe depot and if fit transferred to either Crewe North for express engines or Crewe south for freight engines and a running in turn.

Not the stillage up front with a load of bits in, engine 90685?, these stored all stripped down parts from each engine and then went off to their respective specilaised areas for inspection, repair or replacement, hopefully the stillage would return to the belt with all the right bits on at the right point to tie up with refitting at that given station. Amazing this was all done on cardboard slips and chaulk markings!

Behind the Britannia is a Stanier cab, Jubilee, Black 5, rebuilt Patriot style, could be a Coronation or Princess looking at the rear drag beam construction, again I'd need to check my LMR books for such details, might even be able to tie in the works visit with the Britannia and come up with a possible candidate.

The workshops look very empty in the back ground and given the general state the engines could be in for stripping before scrapping, but given there's no OHLE flashes on the Britannia, not visible anyway, then it might not be in for scrapping. Crewe tended to cut up engines in the metal shop at the other end of the plant, this traverser is up the West end heading out toward Chester, the other one at the other end was outside.

If it's early 60's then some parts of Crewe works was moving over to diesel repairs and building, as well as electric loco repairs.

I'd like to trouble you for the largest scan you have of this please. I'd like to run it through my software to give it more punch and clarity if possible as well as keep for my collection. Same goes for any Crewe shots really, our dropbox would suffice as a temporary facility to transfer said image. The fogging in the top right may also be repairable with a little dodging and contrast adjustments.

MD
 
Last edited:

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Hi Mick.

The WD is deffo 906something2. That, in combination with the shed plate leads me to be pretty certain which loco this involves. As far as scrapping is concerned, both these locos were scrapped with some time between them, and at different locations, which is another reason for believing that they are both in works.

It makes sense for this to be Crewe as a loco from Agecroft would be much more likely to be at Crewe than Doncaster.

I have the original scan at 2400 dpi and a copy which I've adjusted as shown here. I can't do more than that at this time as stuff remains in store. (These were scanned before we moved). I'll bung both on Dropbox in my personal space and keep fingers crossed that there's room.

Brian
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Brian, cheers.

I'm talking about the chalked number on the parts in the stillage not the smoke box door, with three engine numbers you can probably get the date quite accurately.

MD
 

Ressaldar

Western Thunderer
Brian,

the allocation for 70033 - according to the RCTS BR Standard Locomotives is:
12/52 Holyhead, P1/53 Longsight, P2/60 Trafford Park, P2/61 Willesden, P13/62 Llandudno Junction, P6/63 Willesden, P10/65 Crewe South, P7/65 Carlisle - so definitely a London Midland loco all its life.

It would appear that it ran with the same BR 1 tender - number 852, for all of its working life.

The maintenance records show:

LI 02/55 mileage 131,512 carried out at Crewe
HG 07/57 mileage 128,767 carried out at Crewe
HI 04/59 mileage 103,411 carried out at Crewe
HI 09/60 mileage 84,133 carried out at Crewe

Original boiler number 981, changed to number 825 10/07/57

Withdrawn from service 15/07/67

I hope that this helps with the quest.

regards

Mike
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thank you Mike. That's pretty definitive regarding the location, so I'd guess that this is either 04/59 or 09/60 - although even those may be a bit early and I'd have expected the loco to return to works between 1960 and 1967.

Helpful stuff. Thanks.

Brian
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
90685 it may not be - it was a WR loco until 1962 - I may even have seen it at Southall, but my books are all ........ - well, you've heard it before!

I'll have a look for other possible interpretations.

B
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Right,

It's certainly Crewe and the other two engines are 90685 and 90632, your right in that 90685 was a WR engine, but of the 14 works visits she had, eight were at Crewe :eek:.

Back to the Britannia, she has no AWS (timing reservoir below cab rear side sheet) or speedometer (bracket on firebox base or conduit to said bracket for cabling), AWS was fitted 3/3/59 - 8/4/59 so it has to be before that.

Works visits are:-

70033
20/6/56 - 28/7/56 LC
3/6/57 - 10/7/57 GO
3/5/58 - 10/7/58 NC(Engine Orders)

To tie in the WD's we have

90685
7/6/58 - 25/6/58 HI

90632
6/6/58 - 21/6/58 HG

Neither of the WD's crossed paths in Crewe works with 70033 at any other time.

Both WD's are in for heavies, which are generally strip downs hence the bits lying around, the Britannia is in for its NC(EO) and would not be stripped down but would be having specific remedial works, thinks like deflector hand holds (not in this case as this loco had handrails through out), tender safety chains, etc etc. Thus I'd put the date at Jun 58.

The loco behind is a Jubilee, they're the only class to have a rear buffer beam that matches that profile, I don't have works visits for Jubilees (which reminds me I need to re-purchase 'The Book of the Jubilees' after selling my 2nd hand copy when new ones were reprinted) so cannot cross check which engine it might be.

All this LMR stuff is pulling at the heart and opening books I really should keep closed at the moment! Thanks for the large images, will have a go at editing later tonight if time permits, must make time for GoT on the TV later though ;)

Next!
 
Last edited:

mickoo

Western Thunderer
LD 70033, which is Left Driver 70033, just in case they loose it I suppose, the others are obviously off somewhere and this one may follow in due course or they just opted to mark them all at the beginning and didn't need to take this one out. Mind, the marking looks fresh and the wheel reasonably clean so it could be the first of the three to return.

In theory it should really be marked ID (Intermediate Driver), LD would be leading and TD trailing, but this is clearly the middle axle with extended crank pin and fixing bolts for the crank.

MD
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thanks again for lots of lovely detail. This is somewhat earlier in date than I expected for this shot, but is in line with the range of dates of all the shots in this collection. Interestingly (for me) this was almost exactly the range of dates when I started to take an interest in railways.

As far as the wheels are concerned I wonder whether it's probable that they were away from the loco for turning. I am, however, amazed at the jumble of parts which are stacked up in an entirely disorganised manner. I never had the pleasure of visiting Crewe but at the same sort of date was visiting Swindon and Eastleigh which by memory were apparently better organised.

B
 
Top