Chas's workbench
- Thread starter Chas Levin
- Start date
Chas Levin
Western Thunderer
Yes, thanks Simon, you have a point: they do look a little clean, don't they? I'm not a weathering modeller and I generally go for a fairly pristine, recently out-shopped look, but used-looking wooden boards are within my abilities...
The cab floor was black originally black but needed repainting to hide the glue that secures the crews' feet and I simply re-blacked it
without thinking!
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Chas Levin
Western Thunderer
A brief pause in modelling for some rather different trains:
Through places like these:
And having taken the TGV from Paris to Nice, arrival just in time for dinner:
No model shops here though, as far as I can see… have to look further tomorrow!
Through places like these:
And having taken the TGV from Paris to Nice, arrival just in time for dinner:
No model shops here though, as far as I can see… have to look further tomorrow!
Chas Levin
Western Thunderer
Thanks Mark - I think we've found it, but it was shut today (Sunday and unlike the UK, a lot of shops and restaurants do actually shut: takes me back to my youth…).
In the meantime, we took some trams today:
And saw an iron bridge with very old PLM lettering (it doesn't seem quite right to call something from the late 19th or early 20th century a 'logo'):
simond
Western Thunderer
a monogram?
Chas Levin
Western Thunderer
Thank you Simon, much better I think; 'logo' is apparently a 1930s abreviation of logogram or logotype, whereas 'monogram' is from the late 17th century French which is in turn from the Greek… so there you go!
Chas Levin
Western Thunderer
Morning Alan, another excellent suggestion but I'm not sure if that was actually a PLM trade mark (though that term has also been around a long time apparently, being derived from a 14th century version).
I shall see if I can find out: I have a large, thick book on The Golden Age of Continental Railways in my to-read pile that may contain the answer and even if it doesn't, it'll be an excuse to start reading it!
Which reminds me, I also have a couple of PLM 19th century coach kits to build…
simond
Western Thunderer
I'm as far from being a classicist as I am from being a concert violinist, but "logotype" is, I think, from the Greek ,"logos", word & "tupos", mark - so similar etymology
A drift into Wikipedia promises rabbit holes galore - logo is promising, with the Bass trademark, logos looks to be somewhat more philosophical...
Chas Levin
Western Thunderer
Simon, quite right that logotype is of course from just as ancient a root as monogram; I should have looked at Wiki as well as googling and having done so (sidestepping the rabbit holes!) I learn that in the days of hot metal typesetting a logotype was one word cast as a single piece of type, as opposed to a ligature, which is two or more letters joined, but not forming a word.
So does that mean that PLM is a ligature? I think it more usually refers to things like ae and oe where they're joined so I think perhaps logo / monogram / crest is still better after all.
Daifly, crest, badge and motif all cover it too of course. Interestingly though, there's a page on a site called wagons-lit-diffusion (I'm typing this on my phone and can't see how to copy a link) that shows 9 different PLM logos (their word) but none like the lettering on this bridge.
I don't think that in those days marketing and branding were as omnipresent and as influential as they are today, when nothing emanating from a large company is permitted to show anything other than officially sanctioned graphics. In those days (I suspect perhaps up to the 1930s even) things were much less controlled and a company building a bridge for a railway network might be told to include their initials as part of the casting but not necessarily be given artwork to follow.
I'm sure I've come across similar examples before, with UK companies, where lettering was used that looked quite unlike their usual style, but I can't now remember where I've seen them… Anyone else know of similar examples?
So does that mean that PLM is a ligature? I think it more usually refers to things like ae and oe where they're joined so I think perhaps logo / monogram / crest is still better after all.
Daifly, crest, badge and motif all cover it too of course. Interestingly though, there's a page on a site called wagons-lit-diffusion (I'm typing this on my phone and can't see how to copy a link) that shows 9 different PLM logos (their word) but none like the lettering on this bridge.
I don't think that in those days marketing and branding were as omnipresent and as influential as they are today, when nothing emanating from a large company is permitted to show anything other than officially sanctioned graphics. In those days (I suspect perhaps up to the 1930s even) things were much less controlled and a company building a bridge for a railway network might be told to include their initials as part of the casting but not necessarily be given artwork to follow.
I'm sure I've come across similar examples before, with UK companies, where lettering was used that looked quite unlike their usual style, but I can't now remember where I've seen them… Anyone else know of similar examples?
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oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Chas.
That's great stuff, and this is turning on to a real and absorbing rabbit hole. I'd not have called it a logo - that seems a too modern-a-word for it. It has some great similarities to the cartouche (chosen and probably inaccurate) I've seen applied elsewhere. A prime example is the Paris Metro which the Parisians (quite rightly IMHO) both respect and admire as part of their history.
Brian
That's great stuff, and this is turning on to a real and absorbing rabbit hole. I'd not have called it a logo - that seems a too modern-a-word for it. It has some great similarities to the cartouche (chosen and probably inaccurate) I've seen applied elsewhere. A prime example is the Paris Metro which the Parisians (quite rightly IMHO) both respect and admire as part of their history.
Brian
simond
Western Thunderer
Entwined GWR monogram?
Eg GWR monogram (1870-1912) - 2 PAIRS SMALL SIZE ONLY
and of course, the platform bench cast bases, and the later roundel.
Overseer
Western Thunderer
Ensignia was my first thought.
Edit: Oops, shouldn't type on the phone while eating breakfast.
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Ian Rathbone
Western Thunderer
It’s a monogram (OED - two or more intertwined letters). It is not a crest as that is a heraldic term referring specifically to the helmet/ coronet/ crown sitting above the shield on a coat of arms. The second BR emblem is a crest as it uses the crest from the BTC coat of arms, the first BR emblem was not a crest; it was a badge, emblem or logo.
Ian R
Ian R
Chas Levin
Western Thunderer
Ah, thank you Brian - cartouche, another similar word that was on the tip of my tongue (probably because we're in France currently!). Great word but I think a cartouche is usually more of a graphic design than purely lettering - I may be wrong though, it's by no stretch my area of expertise!
Nice point though, about the similarity to the Paris Metro design - bet they're of a similar vintage in their design.
Chas Levin
Western Thunderer
Yes indeed, that's a good example. I'm not a GWR man and I'm not sure I've seen that entwined version before but the GWR bench castings are certainly something I've seen before (a friend has one i.e. he has a bench, not just one casting!) so it's very likely that's one of things I was thinking of…
Chas Levin
Western Thunderer
Voilà - merci mon ami, je suis d'accord, c'est la monogramme!