Cost of the hobby

[28ten]

I lack such devotion and flit around from one idea to another, and often feel unhappy that nothing has moved forward.
.[/quote
thats me to a T I often wish I had that single minded devotion to one era and location, instead Im trying to work out how I can run Broad gauge, next to a Bulleid pacific, and a Western on the Cambrian :laugh: :laugh: and something has to give, but I think I am digressing from the OP :laugh:

 

[Pugsley]

I guess from a purely manufactures stand point, it would be what can the market stand, can I produce it and make a profit at that price? Yes, then I will market it. No, it just doesnt get produced.

I think that depends upon the motivation behind the production of the model. If it was to be manufactured purely with the intention of providing the manufacturer with a profit, then yes, that consideration has to be made. If someone does all the work involved as they want the model, and are prepared to make the parts available as a kit, then the cost/level of profit may become a secondary consideration, they may well be happy to have reduced the cost of their own examples a bit.

Jordan mentioned Cargowaggons and Polybulks above, both of which I want for myself at some point, for which I expect I'll end up effectively manufacturing my own kit of parts. I expect I'll make these available to other interested parties to offset some of the cost, but I wouldn't see it as a 'full on' commercial project. To be honest, I'm fairly sure it wouldn't stand on it's own commercially, but it's something I want to do. I'm probably one of those people that upsets the manufacturers by thinking like this

 

[28ten]

The wierd thing is, that I would've thought (in my own utterly un-informed way, of course) that the prices of JLTRT and MMP would be the other way around. Somehow it just seems slightly strange that a 'plastic' kit is more expensive than a brass one. It must stem from the 4mm mindset again, where brass kits are the most expensive way to obtain a model...

I would suspect that its down to development costs, CAM and CNC time aint cheap. And in some ways MMP are just too cheap :scratch:

 

[28ten]

I expect I'll make these available to other interested parties to offset some of the cost, but I wouldn't see it as a 'full on' commercial project. D

Thats very much my POV, I just want to cover my costs and a few quid in the kitty to cover the next one. but then we dont have to faff about writing instructions etc either

 

[Pugsley]

The wierd thing is, that I would've thought (in my own utterly un-informed way, of course) that the prices of JLTRT and MMP would be the other way around.

In my mind, they are the correct way round if you look at it in terms of the time that you have to spend in constructing the model from the kit. Many hours of work go into an MMP kit so, depending on how you value your time, there is a considerable investment made in that respect. In the JLTRT kit, there is a far lower investment in terms of time (unless you make things more complicated than they need to be ), so you pay more as more of the work is done for you.

In the end, you've got to decide if you can afford it or not, or if there is a cheaper route to the end result you want to achieve. For me, it had to be a JLTRT 37, as nothing else on the market currently comes close IMO, so I saved up and bought one. If there had been another option that would have achieved the same end result for less monetary investment, but more time, I probably would have taken it, but there isn't so I guess it's academic really.

 

[Simon Dunkley]

[quote=""Jordan"":38tv08i8]
The wierd thing is, that I would've thought (in my own utterly un-informed way, of course) that the prices of JLTRT and MMP would be the other way around. Somehow it just seems slightly strange that a 'plastic' kit is more expensive than a brass one. It must stem from the 4mm mindset again, where brass kits are the most expensive way to obtain a model...

I would suspect that its down to development costs, CAM and CNC time aint cheap. And in some ways MMP are just too cheap :scratch:[/quote:38tv08i8]
I think it is the economies of scale: if you expect to sell tens of thousands (as in 00) or hundreds of thousand (US H0) then it is worth investing in the tooling for plastic injection moulding - running the machines is the cheap part of the operation, providing you run the same thing all day. This makes the unit cost for development much smaller, and indeed makes it worthwhile to buy CAM and CNC time, amongst other things.

David's range is comparatively cheap as he has many, many years experience in designing and producing things, more for the military market than for railways, and brings this to bear when developing new kits.

 

[djparkins]

And in some ways MMP are just too cheap :scratch:

Well 28ten - if you think MMP kits are on the cheap side price-wise then you have military modellers to thank! They ensure I sell enough to both live well AND get the economies in pricing into my pruchases of the ingredients for each MMP kit, that make the prices possible - and without compromise of my profit margins [which I would not entertain!].

I'd be interested to hear why you think that MMP kits are in some ways too cheap.

Perhaps if I put the locos up to ?465.00 each I could be stumbling upon a whole new marketing strategy!!! [Urban man only repects what he pays a lot for etc. etc.]

Regards,

DJP
MMP

 

[28ten]

[quote=""28ten"":lqyr90j6]And in some ways MMP are just too cheap :scratch:

Well 28ten - if you think MMP kits are on the cheap side price-wise then you have military modellers to thank! They ensure I sell enough to both live well AND get the economies in pricing into my pruchases of the ingredients for each MMP kit, that make the prices possible - and without compromise of my profit margins [which I would not entertain!].

I'd be interested to hear why you think that MMP kits are in some ways too cheap.

Perhaps if I put the locos up to ?465.00 each I could be stumbling upon a whole new marketing strategy!!! [Urban man only repects what he pays a lot for etc. etc.]

Regards,

DJP
MMP[/quote:lqyr90j6]
In comparison to MOK or Finney locos they are cheap, and when I was recently helping a local modeller get into etched brass construction the cheapest decent wagon kit I could find was your catfish! I have done enough marketing to know that price and perception of quality are closely related. Other manufacturers obviously dont have your economies of scale when it comes to the etching, and more to the point you are passing it on to the customer, you could charge ?200 for the 08 and it still represent excellent value and less than any Pannier kit I can think of. Im not complaining mind :laugh:

 

[Jordan]

[quote=""28ten"":33ph7md5]And in some ways MMP are just too cheap :scratch:

I'd be interested to hear why you think that MMP kits are in some ways too cheap.

[/quote:33ph7md5]
Dammitdammitdammit... I was going to say "Don't tell him that!!!" :shock: :shock: David's seen it now uh-oh...
Maybe I'd better warm my Plastic before he has chance to put the price up... :scratch: :lol: :lol:

Note: MMP kits are priced just absolutely fine as they are...

there I've said it now... :vista:

 

[djparkins]

[quote=""djparkins"":2jzaorsk][quote=""28ten"":2jzaorsk]And in some ways MMP are just too cheap :scratch:

In comparison to MOK or Finney locos they are cheap, and when I was recently helping a local modeller get into etched brass construction the cheapest decent wagon kit I could find was your catfish! I have done enough marketing to know that price and perception of quality are closely related. Other manufacturers obviously dont have your economies of scale when it comes to the etching, and more to the point you are passing it on to the customer, you could charge ?200 for the 08 and it still represent excellent value and less than any Pannier kit I can think of. Im not complaining mind :laugh:[/quote:2jzaorsk][/quote:2jzaorsk]

Understand, 28ten. It hadn't really occurred to me that I was passing on savings. as we hadn't compromised on our 'mark-up' in relation to our non-railway kits. But your posting decides me - the sky is the limit on prices in the future!!!

Seriously though - obviously we have the VAT rise on Jan 4th. This does not affect all 7mm manufacturers equally by any means. It will make a difference to the non-VAT registered ones in that they they will have to pass on the extra VAT, which they cannot reclaim, on the materials they buy in, but not on the profit element of their selling price - however it will affect those on who are [myself included] right throughout our pricing!

DJP

 

[Phill Dyson]

[quote=""Jordan"":4ydfneu9]
The wierd thing is, that I would've thought (in my own utterly un-informed way, of course) that the prices of JLTRT and MMP would be the other way around.

In my mind, they are the correct way round if you look at it in terms of the time that you have to spend in constructing the model from the kit. Many hours of work go into an MMP kit so, depending on how you value your time, there is a considerable investment made in that respect. In the JLTRT kit, there is a far lower investment in terms of time (unless you make things more complicated than they need to be ), so you pay more as more of the work is done for you.

[/quote:4ydfneu9]
I must admit that was my reasoning behind buying a JLTRT kit, I could have got the same class of loco for around say ?200 cheaper from another manufacturer (not MMP) , but it would have taken a lot more than ?200 worth of my time to build & correct the shortcomings in that particular kit :scratch: ........still think they are over-priced though

 

[Pugsley]

I've got to admit that I think they are a bit overpriced as well, but if you want one you have no choice!  I noticed that they've reduced the price of their kettle kits recently, so maybe there's hope for a diesel price cut as well...  ;D

 

[Jordan]

The thing with JLTRT is that there's no-one else selling them at a discount, unlike, say, Tower Models who you can safely bet will sell Heljan at ?100 less than RRP. In fact if I think of Heljan prices I'm actually thinking of Tower prices.  : :-\

 

[Phill Dyson]

The thing with JLTRT is that there's no-one else selling them at a discount, unlike, say, Tower Models who you can safely bet will sell Heljan at ?100 less than RRP. In fact if I think of Heljan prices I'm actually thinking of Tower prices.  : :-\

Yes that's presumably because will only sell direct & can ask the full RRP without competition.......or am I being cynical  :-\

Phill 

 

[djparkins]

Yes that's presumably because will only sell direct & can ask the full RRP without competition.......or am I being cynical  :-\

Phill 

Phill -

I don't know about your being cynical, but in my book there is nothing wrong at all with wanting retain as much profit as you can, especially in a very specialist market place like UK 7mm - every sale HAS to count.  We too only sell direct, as does Martin Finney and MOK.  We used to supply HOG [our only trade customer] before they closed and I thought that when he retired our MMP sales would be dented but in actual fact although we sold slightly less MMP kits in the year after he closed, we actually made more money out of them in total - so I think it has to be  the way to go for a 7mm kit manufacturer.

In addition, whilst Home of O Gauge was open, we were frequently asked by customers for discount, or if we would better HOG's price, so as to get a direct sale.  Now we are in the same position with MMP as with our military kits in that we never get asked for discount!  The price is the price is the price! 

However you dress it up, companies are in business to maximise their margins [as distinct from those just doing it as an adjunct to a hobby] .  The trick for any reputable company is to do this whilst still being fair to the customer [which is the key to survival, ultimately].

There is another way to look at this too - the higher percentage of the customer price the manufacturer can retain for himself, the more profit he has to develop other kits - thus giving the customer more choice.

Regards,

DJP
MMP

 

[28ten]

There is another way to look at this too - the higher percentage of the customer price the manufacturer can retain for himself, the more profit he has to develop other kits - thus giving the customer more choice.

Regards,

DJP
MMP

Thats the way i tend to see it. I dont mind paying good money for quality kits when I know that i am enabling the manufacturer to develop the range. what I do dislike is paying lots of money and then having to chuck half the underframe out!!

 

[Jordan]

Guess we've all been here in modelling  after buying a kit

The price you actually paid
The price you tell your wife you paid
The price she gets you to admit you paid
The price you pay when she finds out what you actually paid.

I like that!! ;D ;D ;D

 

[iploffy]

As I said before get one like mine she likes the trains and want one of her own

Ian

 

[iploffy]

Cost of the hobby we are being taken for a ride official

I want to add something more to this topic I am at the moment pricing up transfers from HRMS and I have noticed that OO tranfers ?5.10, O gauge 17.00 FOR THE SAME TRANSFERS. I will go for the reasoning that the transfers are 3/4 times bigger again so that should be reflected in the price but 3 times the price and then some how is that justifiable, does it take 3 times as long to produce, does it take 3 times the raw materials in both cases i think the answer is no we are being taken for a ride again. does any one know of another way we can have out own custom made.

your thoughts please

Ian

 

[Simon Dunkley]

They are not 1&3/4 times bigger: that is just linear, i.e. in one direction.
In terms of area (they are 1.3/4 times taller as well as 1.3/4 times wider) the increase is the square of this, i.e. 3.0625.

Since the artwork was paid a long time ago, the major cost will be in printing, so costing 3 times as much as the 4mm scale version is bang on as 3 times the ink and 3 times the backing paper are required..