Crymlyn A Shop Techniques. GWR 1366 class.

davey4270

Western Thunderer
No.1. The Prologue.

I've been requested to post a blog on this build. I won't do another blow by blow build blog as I feel it is repeating already posted blogs as with my previous Crymlyn A Shop techniques covering ex Llanelly & Mynydd Mawr 2195 CWM MAWR, 3F 47655, Ex Rhymney Railway 38, Ex Port Talbot Railway 816, Barry Railway F class 726 and L&MMR 704. I will, however, post occasional updates with pictures and a brief comment.
I have always liked small GWR pannier tanks and wanted a model of 1371 which was trialled at Dan y Graig in the 1930's. They weren't impressed and it was sent back. The kits on the market were rejected for various reasons and I built a vaguely similar ex CM&DPLR 29 to compensate. I was pleasantly surprised one day when helping a friend on his model stand at the recent Kettering GOG show that CSP models had acquired the ex Eric Underhill range and were in the process of updating the castings with the various kits. Pride of place in the centre of their stand was an almost complete 1366 class model. I have a close friend who has also wanted one of these so I ordered a pair of kits and will build his in tandem.

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1371 outside the ex Rhondda & Swansea Bay Railway's Dan y graig shed in the 1930's.

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Two pictures of the 1366 class kit on the CSP Models stand at Kettering GOG.

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The pair of kits.

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A pair of footplates.

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The black stain on the raised rivets is from Carr's black for brass which stops solder from flooding the areas treated.

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A cleaned up footplate etch with rivets raised and cut outs for the Slater's sprung horn blocks that I will fit to the leading and driven axles. (Apparently driven axle is the railway term for the axle driven by the cylinders so not the gear driven axle of the model). The fold down valve chest rear has not been cleanly etched through and needs to be freed up before folding down into position. This will also act as a spacer. Eric Underhill's name is etched into the fret. One of the horn blocks is placed in position and was used to estimate the size of the cuts.

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The three laminations of the rear pair of coupling rods were soldered together and the bar part cleaned up while the excess solder on the bosses was left until after the holes were reamed out to suit the Slater's crank pin bushes. This helps to strengthen the bosses during the reaming process as they can delaminate with over enthusiastic reaming. Always let the tool do the work as you can't push a tool through metal, wood or plastic like a knife through butter. My extended axle jig still holding the horn blocks in position after tack soldering. Also visible in the picture are the two small frame spacers I added.
 
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daifly

Western Thunderer
Good stuff David

The rivet ‘dimples’ look quite shallow and half-hearted on the flat etches. Did they still ‘rivet' OK?

The extra frame spacers look like an essential addition - the frames would be far too flexible without I suspect.

I was looking at the CSP Andrew Barclay Fireless 0-4-0 at NewGOG in April and have had a rush of blood to the head and ordered one a few days ago. Like these 1366 kits, it's another ex-Underhill kit. The back-to-front appearance of these locos appeals to me. It will join the stash of 'one day' kit builds!

Dave
 

davey4270

Western Thunderer
Good stuff David

The rivet ‘dimples’ look quite shallow and half-hearted on the flat etches. Did they still ‘rivet' OK?

The extra frame spacers look like an essential addition - the frames would be far too flexible without I suspect.

I was looking at the CSP Andrew Barclay Fireless 0-4-0 at NewGOG in April and have had a rush of blood to the head and ordered one a few days ago. Like these 1366 kits, it's another ex-Underhill kit. The back-to-front appearance of these locos appeals to me. It will join the stash of 'one day' kit builds!

Dave
Hi David.
The rivets raise ok with my GW rivet machine and as a bonus some of the marks are much smaller so make a more accurate line without having to stamp to one side of the etch to make a straight line.
The frames are flexible at the rear and I will add a spacer underneath the cab area. There are brake cylinders to fit here so will check where they fit before adding a rear spacer which is not supplied. There’s a large brake cross shaft to fit here but I’m not sure if this would do the bracing job on its own.
I think one of these fireless locos would satisfy H & S requirements for shunting the coal shed at Graig Wen so one will be added to the Crymlyn A Shop order books. BP Llandarcy had several (4?) used for shunting in the refinery but used coal fired locomotives in the exchange sidings. The fireless engines were topped up with 175 psi steam from the works mains. One survives in Swansea Museum. I have a picture of one of the Llandarcy coal fired engines fitted with a spark arrester, I’ll post it here when I find it as it’s hiding somewhere on my desktop.

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One of the Llandarcy locomotives used for shunting in the yard (below the refinery and next to Crymlyn bog) and the exchange sidings GWR / BR(W). Interestingly, the early boiler houses were coal fired as this fuel was far cheaper than oil!

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A couple of Llandarcy's fireless locomotives. The "preserved" example in Swansea Museum (not the Maritime Museum) is named "Sir Charles". Drummau hill is in the background which has superb views and is accessible via a nature trail. The refinery is now a developing housing estate where the inherent pollution is played down but residents are instructed not to eat anything grown in their gardens!!!
 
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davey4270

Western Thunderer
No.2.

A trial fitting of the two wheelsets and the rear connecting rods sees everything spinning freely even without oil! Result! There is the slightest perceptible play with both rods at the 3 and 9 o'clock positions. A good start and a bonus is that the centre axle bearings give a tad under 0.5mm side play which should be ok without any adjustment. I fit the axle boxes with the extended bearings facing outwards and file them back to give suitable side play. I usually provide 1mm side play but as the instructions warn of limited clearances I will leave this alone for the present. It's easier to take material away than put it back although shims can do the job if necessary. I have found that when I've used shims they tend to draw oil out of the bearings onto the rear face of the wheels so I try to avoid this. Capillary action?
The crank pin holes at the rear of the wheels are countersunk by a hand held drill bit to the depth of the screw head. Be very gentle here and let the tool do the work. I start with a 2mm bit and finish with a 2.5mm bit. A spot of bearing Stud Lock will secure the screw (crankpin) securely in place and give you a sporting chance of removing it if necessary where as with superglue you'll have no chance! I turn the screw slot vertical so that you can see if it ever moves.
The frames fold up, or is it down, to be slightly narrower than other kits I've assembled so the rear fived bearings give more side play than I would like so I will probably have to fit shims here.

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davey4270

Western Thunderer
No.4.

Some fettling of the frames and motion today. There's not a lot to show but hopefully no further adjustments will be necessary.

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The small tops of the axle boxes which help locate and retain the springs were soldered onto the boxes and trimmed to suit. It doesn't look square in this cruel close up but it is in the same position as set up with the axle jigs. It has zero slop and slides up and down freely. The notch in the axle indicates which axle position and the R/H crank pin also aligns with it. The picture is about 10x enlarged!

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The horn block axle stops were trimmed, not much needed with this model, to allow a level ride height with the fixed rear wheels. The centre stops were adjusted to allow an extra 0.3mm clearance. This allows the centre wheels to rise by this amount over uneven track. I have found this to be ample on all my other models. Perhaps a longer wheelbase specimen may require a fraction more. The yet to be fitted springs will impart weight onto these wheels much like the springing on the prototype thus improving traction and electrical pick up. The picture with a piece of plate glass resting on top of the chassis should show the outer wheels inContact with the glass and a 0.3mm gap with the centre wheels. Not the easiest of pictures to take. Also adjusted was the length of the crank pin bushes. A 2.5mm hole in a piece of 5 thou. plastic card was slipped over the bush and the coupling rod reversed and refitted. File down the bush to the coupling rod and with the rod this way you don't damage its face. The result when refitted is 5 thou. clearance.
 

davey4270

Western Thunderer
No.5.

After progressing the second set of frames to the same stage, I made a start on fitting the guard irons. The shorter pair are fitted to the rear and the longer pair fit at the front as the frames taper up towards the buffer plank. I was fortunate in that a trial fitting of one of the cylinder castings showed that there was no room for the guard irons to be fitted to the outside of the frames in front of the cylinder and study of one of the pictures provided in the instructions shows that they appear to be fitted inside the frames. This was duly undertaken after cutting a suitable slot in the front frame spacer/steam chest etching. There appears to be more frame visible in the prototype picture but the model's cylinder cannot be moved back as it will make contact with the leading wheels. I shall have to check if the cylinder casting is too long. Saying this, it will all be hidden on the completed model underneath the footplate and behind the front steps. Your thoughts on this please gentlemen. Also if anyone has access to the prototype, perhaps they can provide a picture.

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The two models so far.

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The cylinder resting in place showing that there is no room for the guard iron to be fitted outside the frames. They were soldered inside the frames after cutting a slot in the steam chest/frame spacer.

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The prototype with a shadow showing (hopefully) that the guard irons are fitted inside the frames. There also appears to be a bit more of the frames visible in front of the cylinder.
 

Richard Gawler

Western Thunderer
The guard irons must have been fixed on in a sturdy way. I mean, they wouldn't have gone directly below the frames with a patch over the join to hold them in place. Given that the thicknesses of the parts on your model look close to scale, then surely the inside is where the guard irons must go.
 

Pete_S

Active Member
The prototype with a shadow showing (hopefully) that the guard irons are fitted inside the frames. There also appears to be a bit more of the frames visible in front of the cylinder.

They seem to be fitted to the outside of the frames.

See: 1366 GWR Collett 0-6-0PT

Photo captioned "1369 along with 1368 at Wadebridge – August 1964" shows the arrangement with and without the leading step.

FWIW, 1363 has the same arrangement as well - 1363 - 1361 Class | Didcot Railway Centre

Pete S.
 

davey4270

Western Thunderer
They seem to be fitted to the outside of the frames.

See: 1366 GWR Collett 0-6-0PT

Photo captioned "1369 along with 1368 at Wadebridge – August 1964" shows the arrangement with and without the leading step.

FWIW, 1363 has the same arrangement as well - 1363 - 1361 Class | Didcot Railway Centre

Pete S.
Doh! Just checked my picture of 1371 at the top of this article and they are fitted outside of the frames. There is more of the frames visible in front of the cylinders so a design flaw somewhere. To modify the frames or the cylinders would be a major undertaking so I think I’ll have to live with it.
 

daifly

Western Thunderer
David

Having looked at a number of broadside photos of these locos, I think you are correct in your assessment that the cylinder block is too long (or the frames and footplate are too short!) There should be more frame visible ahead of the cylinder.
Dave
 

davey4270

Western Thunderer
David

Having looked at a number of broadside photos of these locos, I think you are correct in your assessment that the cylinder block is too long (or the frames and footplate are too short!) There should be more frame visible ahead of the cylinder.
Dave
The “scale” drawing not being to scale doesn’t help.
 

Pencarrow

Western Thunderer
Watching this build with interest as I have serious scars from a (yet to be completed) build of a Agenoria 1366 kit. Started around 2015, just about all the castings were binned and a few replacement parts made for the body. The chassis became a bin job too as the axle positions were way too high and the cylinder blocks completely the wrong shape.

I bought new frames from Premier but have yet to get the enthusiasm to start the chassis again. I was quietly hoping the CSP cylinder castings might provide a suitable escape route for me and await to see how they look in your build. Out of interest could you post photos of the etched sheets? I'm interested to see what sheet the motion and associated brackets sits on...

All in all, the model completed on the CSP stand looks more complete and correct than the Agenoria one. A significantly better starting point.
 

davey4270

Western Thunderer
Watching this build with interest as I have serious scars from a (yet to be completed) build of a Agenoria 1366 kit. Started around 2015, just about all the castings were binned and a few replacement parts made for the body. The chassis became a bin job too as the axle positions were way too high and the cylinder blocks completely the wrong shape.

I bought new frames from Premier but have yet to get the enthusiasm to start the chassis again. I was quietly hoping the CSP cylinder castings might provide a suitable escape route for me and await to see how they look in your build. Out of interest could you post photos of the etched sheets? I'm interested to see what sheet the motion and associated brackets sits on...

All in all, the model completed on the CSP stand looks more complete and correct than the Agenoria one. A significantly better starting point.
I have been advised of the problem and have a solution (hopefully) to it. Watch this space as they say. The “Agenoria” 1366 was not a Peter Stamper designed kit but from another stable absorbed into the range by its then owner.
Thanks for these pictures which will certainly help! The bottom downward extended “flange” on the cylinder casting needs to be removed which will allow the guard iron to sit outside the frames beneath the cylinder. The next session should achieve this.
 
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davey4270

Western Thunderer
The guard iron saga is now hopefully resolved. One of the pictures kindly supplied by Pencarrow (many thanks) clearly shows a cut out in, what I presume is, a lagging cover over the cylinders which will give access to the bolts holding the guard irons in place. Now for the second model........

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davey4270

Western Thunderer
No.6.

Minor fettling is required in the slide bars/crosshead/motion bracket area to obtain a smooth, sliding action. The L/H cylinder that I've started with needed literally tenth's of a millimetre removed at the motion bracket end. This was a tad difficult to set up with the whole assembly falling apart at the slightest opportunity even with the help of copious amounts of Blutac! I got it as close as I could under the circumstances before biting the bullet and Aralditing the cylinder sides and the slide bars together checking that both of the slide bars were parallel to the frames and at the correct orientation! Yes, I had to turn one over!!! A previous picture shows a half cylinder and I spread the glue to the outside of each slide bar location. Hopefully most of the glue will be squeezed out at the joints to act as a filler without completely blocking the hole for the piston rod. I will probably have to run a drill through to clear this later. The cylinder is bolted on so will be removed later to clean up the casting.
I also made a start on assembling the inner bunker. I wasn't sure about the orientation of the cab shelf but it appears to be flush with the front leaving a small gap at the rear where a protruding tab will locate and support the cab rear spectacle plate. The ready shaped outer cab sides fit flush against this assembly so the slight overlap of the shelf was filed flush.

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I do like my rubber bands. The front axle assembly is dropped out and the neat lost wax stuffing gland sits on the piston rod.

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The inner bunker assembly with the cab rear spectacle plate and bunker front (upside down, oops).

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A last, last word on the front guard irons shows them fitted to the inside of the frames. :confused:
 
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