Dapol BR Mark 1 Coach

[Dog Star]

Fraser, we have Easybuild for our mid 1980s stock... so for that time period we have to incorporate:-

* exterior window frames;
* door corrosion angles;
* B4 and Commonwealth bogies:
* equalised brake gear (rather than non-equalised) - hence vac cyls outboard of brake cross-shaft.

As far as I can see, the Dapol Mk.1 does not have any of the late body and underframe design features although that might change at some point.

It case peeps think this is Dapol bashing, consider HJ and Dastaed against the same mid 80s desires.

So, HJ:-
* exterior window frames;
* no corrosion angles;
* BR standard and Commonwealth bogies;
* pictures of the models suggest brake arrangement is that for early BR Standard bogies (not correct for Commonwealth in BR condition... there are several coaches on the WSR which have Commonwealth bogies and in-board vac cyls).

And Darstaed:-
* exterior window frames;
* no corrosion angles;
* only BR standard bogies
* pictures of the models suggest brake arrangement is that for early BR Standard bogies.

At this time, for us, none of the current RTRs are acceptable given the anachronsim of a coach in Blue-Grey.

regards, Graham

 

[Ressaldar]

Hi Dave,

they will only be running as a four care set until Dapol bring out the SK and eventually the RMB to make up a ‘cross country’ set Cardiff - Portsmouth as indicated in Hugh Longworth’s Mk1/Mk2 book. I have a Green syp 33 to share the duties with the Hymek.

regards

Mike

Hi Dave,

sorry, I should have said Bristol - Portsmouth - was 'working from memory' and after a couple of glasses of Merlot and just checked the book.

regards

Mike

 

[simond]

It’s a shame, as I recall detailed discussions on the G0G forum, and the evident efforts to “get it right”. I can’t understand why anyone would think that an obvious flaw was going to be acceptable. The word gets out, sales will suffer. Given the investment that had to be committed up front, that seems to be an avoidable issue, but there must have been reasons.

similar discussions on RMWeb about the Dapol 6W milk tankers

atb
Simon

 

[AJC]

Fraser, we have Easybuild for our mid 1980s stock... so for that time period we have to incorporate:-

* exterior window frames;
* door corrosion angles;
* B4 and Commonwealth bogies:
* equalised brake gear (rather than non-equalised) - hence vac cyls outboard of brake cross-shaft.

As far as I can see, the Dapol Mk.1 does not have any of the late body and underframe design features although that might change at some point.

It case peeps think this is Dapol bashing, consider HJ and Dastaed against the same mid 80s desires.

So, HJ:-
* exterior window frames;
* no corrosion angles;
* BR standard and Commonwealth bogies;
* pictures of the models suggest brake arrangement is that for early BR Standard bogies (not correct for Commwealth).

And Darstaed:-
* exterior window frames;
* no corrosion angles;
* only BR standard bogies
* pictures of the models suggest brake arrangement is that for early BR Standard bogies.

At this time, for us, none of the current RTRs are acceptable given the anachronsim of a coach in Blue-Grey.

regards, Graham

These strike me as things that are all resolvable. The window frames can be had from Easybuild - and certainly some Mk1s made it to blue/grey without them (indeed, some are preserved without them), bogies are available aftermarket as, presumably is brakegear (or can be made so, as Masokits did in 4mm). None of these RTR offerings have ETH fittings either and the same is true of Bachmann and Hornby's 4mm efforts and the only variant they have, I think, is some removed steps on the ends.

All these suppliers have made a choice and decided that the early condition is where the market is.* They are not wrong would be my observation. For what little it's worth, if I was after a good '80s condition mark 1 in 7mm on a budget (and atmospheric conditions in Beelzebub's realm would have to change somewhat, as, more to the point, would my finances!) I would not look past the Dapol examples at this point whether or not reworking/repainting was needed. It would certainly be quicker than kit building I think.

Adam

* See also the 4mm Bachmann monobloc tanker - the springs are only right for the early condition: if you're bothered, change them, if not, live with 'em - replacing the ladders and walkways makes a bigger visual difference.

 

[Heather Kay]

They are not wrong would be my observation.

I agree with this.

It’s a bit of a joke to say most O gauge modellers don’t care about what the shiny red or green steam engine pulls, but there’s a deal of truth in it. I can see a rake of Darstaed coaches being hauled round a club test track, and they’ll look fine. Should a Dapol or two get in the mix, no-one will notice the slight difference in height. Remember, most club sessions usually see a motley collection of pre- and post-grouping coaches or wagons being towed by a Heljan Class 60!

Those of us that do care about the fidelity of model coaches and wagons are still quite the rarity, I’m afraid.

 

[Dog Star]

These strike me as things that are all resolvable. The window frames can be had from Easybuild - and certainly some Mk1s made it to blue/grey without them...

Adam (@AJC), I concur with your thoughts on possibilities - Easybuild offers B4 and Commonwealth bogies as separate items plus window frame etches; adding the corrosion strips is possible although tedious; correcting the location of the vacuum cylinder may be tricky to remove the cylinder; and correcting the shape of the adjacent V-hangers is a doddle if suitable etches are available (Easybuild again).

If you can point me towards any preserved examples without external window frames I shall look for photos to see how that changes our plans for Blue-Grey on the West Highland in 1986-8.

regards, Graham

 

[AJC]

There's a few on the Severn Valley (early buys from BR) and they're mostly in their Carmine and Cream rake, along with a few with the window frames. Here's one: Severn Valley Railway - Heritage Steam Railway.. I'd have thought it was relatively rare, but not unknown.

And yes, Heather, the sense that what goes on behind the drawhook is minority sport is still most pronounced in 7mm, as an observer (and, in the nicest possible way, the topics in the forum generally bear that out).

Adam

 

[Overseer]

My query was whether the Dapol and Easybuild body shape and size are the same, which they should be if both are to scale. Could someone with both please take a photo? Early and late details are a different matter, if these sell well presumably Dapol will do later versions in the future, as they have with the 08.

I have been thinking about building a TSO without centre door in early condition from an Easybuild kit - it would be good to know whether it will look right with the Dapol coaches. At least one of the TSO s had 3 windows with added frames and the rest of the windows without frames in 1978.

 

[Dog Star]

If you can point me towards any preserved examples without external window frames I shall look for photos to see how that changes our plans for Blue-Grey on the West Highland in 1986-8.

Here's one: Severn Valley Railway - Heritage Steam Railway...

Adam (@AJC), now that throws a spanner (BSW of course) into our plans. I have looked at your link and followed through to the relevnt entry of the on-line railway heritage register where there is a photo that suggests (strongly!) that the carriage has retained the non-equalised brake gear arrangement with the vacuum cylinder in-board of the adjacent V-hangers. Note that the body has received corrosion strips to the edges of the door frames.

On the basis of a couple of photos it does look like the Dapol design can carry blue-grey livery for some coaches.

Further digging has located some photos of Mk1 stock running on Commonwealth bogies with the vac.cyl. inboard of the V-hangers, see this gallery. Whether what can be seen in the photos is a coach as built/modified by BR is not known.

thank you, Graham

 

[AJC]

Hi Graham - I wouldn't read too much into the brake change and the BR bogies - when sold out of service, BR generally wanted their B4s and Commonwealths back and either sold them sans bogies or swapped them prior to sale. One of the perils of preservation-era pictures. As Fraser notes, there's a reasonable chance that Dapol will tool up a later variant given time, but there's so many options for Mk1s as they lasted in service a representative model will have to be based on photos. I'm not an expert on the Highlands, but were there ETH vehicles before the 37/4s?

Adam

 

[Overseer]

Hi Graham - I wouldn't read too much into the brake change and the BR bogies - when sold out of service, BR generally wanted their B4s and Commonwealths back and either sold them sans bogies or swapped them prior to sale. One of the perils of preservation-era pictures. As Fraser notes, there's a reasonable chance that Dapol will tool up a later variant given time, but there's so many options for Mk1s as they lasted in service a representative model will have to be based on photos. I'm not an expert on the Highlands, but were there ETH vehicles before the 37/4s?

Adam

Yes, plus ETHELs.

 

[AJC]

Yes, plus ETHELs.

Thanks - I'd forgotten about those.

Adam

 

[Dog Star]

Adam (@AJC) and Fraser (@Overseer),

You may have noticed that I have not mentioned ETH fittings in this topic...

I am aware of the use of ETHEL units on the WHL, I believe that those units had left the WHL circa 1986 (about the time that the passenger services went over to 37/4 haulage). With the help of Bob Reid and various issues of Platform 5 books plus some stock identified from photos we have a short list of about ten typical Mk1 coaches which were used on the WHL circa 1986-8 and all bar one of those was vac only (the exception being a RMB which was dual this and dual that). Strange that there are very few photos of 37/4 with ETH Mk2 stock before say 1990.

regards, Graham

 

[richard carr]

My memory of Mark 1 coaches in the early 80's, up to summer 1983, was their use on summer Saturday holiday trains going to Blackpool, Llandudno, Paignton, Newquay, Scarborough, we even still had through trains from Bridlington to London back then. All of these trains used steam heat really crappy mark 1 coaches on B1 bogies all limited to 90 mph, and that is what I want to model, so for me the Dapol mk1s are ideal.

Now those in daily service were different, they were running on commonwealth bogies and a few on B4 bogies, some had even been converted to ETH but most were not but there were still Mk1s on B1 bogies. Overnight trains back then were still largely steam heat and I recall many journeys to Scotland and London on them. These were the ones that would have had the window frames and door mods.

This is a picture of 1S15 the 17:18 Newcastle Edinburgh local service calling at all stations including Manors (3 minutes down the line)

The front full brake is on B1 bogies the next 2 SKs are on commonwealth bogies (I think but not B1s) then there is an early MK2 then the CSK is B1s. This train ran 6 days a week and I and a bunch of local bashers would be down at central station almost every day to see what was on the front and probably take it as far as Manors. if there was something really good on the front then to Chathill and back with the matching local from Edinburgh.
As for window frames I'm struggling to tell if they have them or not.

I have also looked at quite a few of my other photos from this time and there are plenty of Mk1s on B1 bogies

 

[Dog Star]

Richard (@richard carr), my take:-
*coach 1, BR standard bogie - see the cart springs;
*coach 2, Commonwealth bogie - gives the impression of the curve solebar at the ends;
*coach 3, Commonwealth bogie;
* coach 4, B4 bogie - see the angle girder for solebar;
* coach 5, BR standard bogie - see the cart springs.

regards, Graham

 

[Ressaldar]

I numbered my rake yesterday using HMRS Pressfix



here are three of the rake (no space available to have No 4 on) and bearing in mind my eyesight problems, a happy result.

regards

Mike

 

[Compton castle]

Not the best picture I’ll do a few more once the sun comes back out, Dapol mk1 with heljan / hattons Gresley

 

[Focalplane]

Dapol Mk 1 on left with unfinished Sidelines Porthole on right. Looks good to me!

Edit to add that the roof profile of Sidelines LMS coaches is incorrect which might explain the difference in roof line though Mk 1s were, I believe, designed to a lower gauge.

 

[Compton castle]

Here’s a much better shot of how the Dapol MK1 marries up to a Heljans/ hattons Gresley

 

[Overseer]

View attachment 141047 Here’s a much better shot of how the Dapol MK1 marries up to a Heljans/ hattons Gresley

Does that show that the Gresley is riding a bit high? Can the bolster be adjusted to get the bottom of the bodies to align? It might reduce bogie swing though.