Early LSWR 1st Class Carriage

[Jon Nazareth]

I'm going to have a go at building this 1st to go with the third that's nearing completion. I have a few questions that I would like to field and hopefully will get some answers. Having said that, it is a very early build and not much in the way of evidence exists as far as I know. I have a bit of knowledge with regards to carpentry and how they built this has me scratching my head.
1. Is the framing thin strips of wood simply covering joins in panels that are fixed to an inner frame? or, Is it actual framing with the panels fixed behind that?
If thin strips of wood, I can only imagine that the framing is all internal.

What does the team think?

Jon

 

[Ian_T]

I don't know too much about these very early coaches Jon but wooden carriages were normally built using panels attached to an inner wooden framework. The joints between the panels were then covered by thin strip or moulded beading.

Have a look here to see how the LNER did their 'Teak' carriages. I don't think the basic 'technology' used in building wooden carriage stock would have changed too much over the years, as these skills were passed down by the Trades. If something worked, they didn't mess around with it.

LNER Teak Panels

Regards,

IanT

 

[Rob R]

I would go for an internal frame with the visible beading on the outside being there to make the panel joints a little more waterproof. At that period the panels may well be paper machie (spelling alert!), a carryover from road carriage building practice.
Either way I have no doubt it will turn out to be another masterpiece.
Rob

 

[Mike W]

Hmm, not sure. Beading was usually a lot more delicate than that, so mu hunch is that's the framing. Wide flat "beading" persisted around the lower panels of Scottish carriages a lot longer, so may be worth looking at some of those?

Mike

 

[Jon Nazareth]

Thanks, Ian and Rob and also Mike. Mike, you reminded me that I have a copy of Railway Carriages of the GNR and in it, I found this picture which is not so dissimilar to the LSWR version. Not so noticeable in this picture but, in another of the same carriage, one can get an idea of how thick the strips were.

Jon

 

[Jon Nazareth]

Here is the other picture.

Jon

 

[ianlbsc]

Gordon Weddell's archive had photos of early LSWR stock. I believe the LSWR Circle have them digitised now. I am fairly certain there was an early accident photo that showed these carriages.
Cheers, Ian

 

[Jon Nazareth]

Ian
I have looked on the LSWR website, including the members section, and the HMRS website and neither list any collection by George Weddell. Not to worry, I'll build the coach with cover strips on the outside.

Regards
Jon

 

[Mike W]

Jon,

So far as LNWR carriages were concerned, I really only know those built post 1880-ish. On those the corner posts included a rebate for the end of the panel (side and end panels) and it had a radius on its edges. The other edges of the panels were covered by beads with matching radius to each edge, but you would never know which was which unless you took the coach apart
.
I guess what I'm asking is, for a model, what difference does it make whether the strips are the framing or cover-strips (beading)?

Mike

 

[Jon Nazareth]

Mike, it doesn't matter a hill o' beans.

Jon

 

[Jon Nazareth]

Our local mail sorting office is understaffed and apparently, there is a bag log of post waiting to be sorted and sent out. Folks here haven't had post for a while even though they know that stuff has been sent. This includes myself as I am waiting for some railway bits and bobs. While waiting, I thought that I'd draw up the sides of this carriage onto 1mm thick styrene. The reason that I chose this particular first is because it has no tumblehome making me think that it would be easier to build. Well, while drawing up, I could see all sorts of problems cropping up and maybe not so easy after all! I'm going to try and cut out the openings for the windows and the vents while still on the drawing board. While still on the board and held square, I'll apply all of the detail, remove from the board and then clean up the openings. That's the plan but if it works or not is another matter. I think that this would have been a good one to have etched but, I don't have the drawing skills nor the means to make it into one of those special type of files (can't remember their name ).
It's a shame that these early carriages et al, don't have a following as it would make them more commercially viable.
Jon

P.S. Sorry about the poor quality of the picture.

 

[Jon Nazareth]

This is not going well. The cutting out wasn't as easy as I thought that it would be especially the openings for the vents. The one above the centre door in the top side is very bad. I may be able to fudge it but I'm not sure. I've already made the under frame so, my feeling is to soldier on and see how it turns out. However, at 1mm, I may have used a too thick sheet of styrene and maybe, I should cut my loses and restart over with a sheet of about .7mm. What a conundrum.
The sides may not look that bad in the picture but we all know how differently things can look in the cold light of day.
If anyone has made anything like this before, I would like to hear their comments.

Jon

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

Jon,
It looks pretty good except for that one vent. You could stick a strip of styrene along the bad edge and, once set completly, re shape the opening. Use a strip a wee bit thicker than your side and smooth it down with fine wet and dry paper, that way you wont see the join!
Ian

 

[Jon Nazareth]

I wasn't happy with the above and so, I've redrawn it but this time on thinner plasticard. The only thing is that the vents have come out deeper but, I'm going to have to live with that.

Jon

 

[Jon Nazareth]

Actually, I’m not sure why I posted that second drawing as it’s virtually the same as the first

Jon

 

[NickB]

Ah, how often have I made a part, realised that it is not as good as it could be, and then have to decide whether to put up with it or replace it. It's always a difficult decision. One thing I learned (or taught myself) to do is not to make a snap decision, but to set it arise for a day, or week, or whatever, and then take a fresh look at it. Sometimes I just know it is going to bug me forever, even if others tell me it is not noticeable,, but other times I decide I can walk away from it.

There is also an age, or maybe an experience, factor. I'm more finicky and more likely to replace than I used to be, and so the construction time gets longer. It's not just me, I've heard several other modellers of a certain age whose work I greatly admire say the same thing.

Nick

 

[Mike W]

One thing I love about Jon's posts is his blow by blow account of the good and the bad. We feel the emotional roller coaster and at the end even when he's still not happy, he unveils some exquisite masterpiece. Whichever you do Jon I am confident it will be superb, even if you aren't. Personally I'd stick with the thick one and bodge that area, but then I don't make exquisite creations.

Mike

 

[Jon Nazareth]

Mike, you are just an old flatterer but, thanks all of the same.

Jon

 

[Jon Nazareth]

Jon,
It looks pretty good except for that one vent. You could stick a strip of styrene along the bad edge and, once set completly, re shape the opening. Use a strip a wee bit thicker than your side and smooth it down with fine wet and dry paper, that way you wont see the join!
Ian

Ian
Not sure why but I've only just seen your post and read of your idea. The trouble is, I've already made two new sides!

Jon

 

[Jon Nazareth]

Here are two new sides made out of .5mm thick styrene sheet. Once again, they don't show up very well. The sides are split apart in order to help with the cleaning up of all of the cut edges, it was a bit floppy as one piece. I didn't cut out the openings for the louvres this time but scored inside the panels. This didn't come out as good as I would have wished but, I'm carrying on all of the same. I've also rounded off the edges of the shaped fixed windows. I'm sure that is what is represented by that extra line on the drawing and, I've seen it done on a different company's carriage so, I assume that it's correct. I'm going to start fixing in place the strips that I assume cover the joints in the panels. Hopefully, they will add a bit of stiffness to the sides.

Jon