Finescale - of a sort?!

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Once more, Peter, I'm in awe of your persistence and problem solving. Also, I'm no metallurgist but Ian is quite right - quenching is not necessary and I've been told even undesirable as far as copper is concerned. However, you've resolved the issue in a different and most elegant way. Added to which that copper bar will add a nice bit of adhesive weight to the finished article. :))

Here's a thought about bending copper tube, though. I've never seen a domestic plumber anneal copper tube before bending it. Some of that stuff is really thin - (in some cases porous which is far from ideal for plumbing) - and yet bends on one of their professional benders without creasing and as far as I know they have no means of packing the inside of the pipe. Personally I've always used a spring but recognise that would not be an option for you as I doubt that bending springs are available for 9.6 mm pipe. :)

These sentences may, of course, elicit further discussion which may or may not be of interest in your thread which keeps us so entertained and amazed in equal measure. All power to your elbows, Peter.

Brian
 

Giles

Western Thunderer
I did a year as a fitter driver for a coach company, and one of the regular jobs was re-piping the air brake system. I think 10mm was the standard size, and it was reasonably thick walled stuff - cupro-nickel if I recall. Tight bends we only ever used a proper bending tool, otherwise the wall would collapse. Even so, the radius was larger than Peter described. Thin wall would be a nightmare.....!
 

Peter Insole

Western Thunderer
Thank you Tim T. for your kindness. I am glad it is an inspiration, and I continue to live in the hope that the whole project might encourage others to have a go at something similar too?!

Ah well Ian, thank you for pointing that out... but ho-hum, I did do it the daft way anyway! I suppose the only advantage was that the process was slightly speeded up by having cool metal to grab hold of straight away?!

Would quenching have had an effect on the longer term workability of the copper? I do admit that I am still afraid of doing it - every time, and even yesterday with the solid round bar, found that in the same manner as CZ121 brass; I could distinctly "feel" the initial softness of the metal, but also a quite rapid "work hardening" during each stage of the bend. Am I imagining the "Uh-oh, this doesn't want to move much more" sensation?

Thank you too Brian, and I know you are absolutely right! Perhaps I am being too timid with the stuff nowadays? I have bent a fair bit of 15mm and 22mm domestic plumbing pipe over the years... and without annealing... although I was always led to believe that it was already thus treated?!

Thank you so much Giles as well for your always encouraging replies!

One thing I can be certain of, and this hopefully will go some way towards answering your original question though Tim T.; These two very difficult, prominent, and somewhat "signature" balance pipes, plus a short, and decidedly "manageable" section of 3/16th inch blower pipe to run along the top of the saddle tank are the very last bits of coppersmithing required... and I am not particularly unhappy about that prospect either!

Overall, the tasks remaining are notably diminishing now, and it would be rather too tempting to think that I'm on the home straights, (?) however, there are some really "interesting" bits (sometimes in a sort of fearful meaning) yet to do!

Besides, I have still got to get that silly "bathtub" back off the floor and up the cellar stairs again... although I'm hoping that a little of the content will have evaporated off by now?!

Pete.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thanks for the response to mine, Peter. You mention that domestic plumbing pipe may be ready annealed, and delving in to the nooks and crannies of what still passes for a memory I suspect you are correct - an aspect of domestic plumbing I'd forgotten until now.

Brian
 

class27

Active Member
Most plumbing type benders are mandrel type with an inner and outer former, so the pipe is pushed into and kept in shape as it is bent, Quality and ease of use varies from piece to piece these days. You can buy pre-annealed, but it usually comes in coils, so you've lost some of the softness just straightening it out. If you feel it tighten up, you can stop and re-anneal, but do the whole area, nothing like hard spots to cause chaos when you're nearly done. I did or didn't quench copper depending on how much of a hurry I was in, or how close my hands were to the hot bit, it does not make much difference to the overall effect.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thanks for that @class27 . My own experience is limited to domestic plumbing so I've never used a professional pipe bender. That's useful knowledge for the memory bank but I'll probably end up pushing something important out of the way to find room... :D

Brian
 

Peter Insole

Western Thunderer
Thank you again to everyone. It has been wonderfully amusing, but is somewhat academic now that the job is done, and the emptied "tub" has been neatly stowed away back under the workbench!

My wife has been rather busy lately, and it was on one of those occasions, the other day, when left to my own devices, that I decided to deal with that dodgy and redundant vessel:

I managed to lift it round the corner, up the cellar stairs, around two more sharp bends and right across the dining room... with only a single moment where the water briefly surged perilously close to the rim:

"Woah, hold on ol' boy... you're not quite there, so don't celebrate success just yet" I says to myself.

Upon arriving in the kitchen, I realised that the sink still had crockery within, so rather than loose forward momentum, decided to continue into the "back-lobby" - where to the left side is a small, corner mounted, hand-wash basin. This is another area with very limited manoeuvring space, so upon reaching my target, I carefully positioned myself and started to tip the trough up - and commence the outpouring slightly to the right hand of the bowl - with a notion of being more able to observe the rate of flow.

I misjudged the correct angle... and it rapidly became apparent that the volume of water being discharged was completely overwhelming both the plughole and overflow...

I had also utterly failed to take into account the fact that the bowl is beautifully elliptical, in plan and profile...

It is said that in certain, and particularly dire circumstances, that time itself seems to slow right down?

Although what transpired took just a mere few seconds; I do recall thinking:

"Oh..... wow, just look at the way that wa.................. "

...................................

By the time my wife returned home, everything was more or less dry.... and she didn't say anything.... until a while afterwards anyway, when she pointed out to me that the humidity level on one of her monitors had "gone through the roof!"

Pete.
 

Stoke5D

Western Thunderer
As regards annealing copper pipe, it doesn't matter whether you quench it or let it cool naturally but I usually take the quench option since you can then work with it more quickly. Also, for copper pipe in the sizes and thicknesses more like those used on the real thing, quenching it also removes any mill scale, which is helpful of course.
 

Peter Insole

Western Thunderer
Apologies for the radio silence during the last week, but I have just been plodding on with the peculiar plumbing problems without interruption!

The long balance pipe on the right hand side of the loco had a brass flange brazed on at either end, so required a high degree of accuracy (and a fair amount of luck) when setting up and soldering! There could be no tweaking of the pipe with tweezers or even twixt thumb and fingers on this one!

A friend of mine the other day suggested that I consider (modern) adhesives as an option, stating that they are very effective these days, and with the majority of parts only being decorative requirements, might be a great deal cleaner and pleasant to use?

I answered that with; "the number of times I might have to sweat the bits apart again and re-try could get a bit messy with glue!"

"Fair do's" he replied!

Oddly, as it turned out, the aforementioned fittings went on - with no less than five wretched little M3 studs needing to align - first time! It was the slightly less critical left hand pipe, that only had a flange at the outer (saddle tank) end that fought back!

Another issue is that I am reaching the end of my stock of brass round and hex sections... slightly before the final fitting out jobs are completed! The trailing end of that problem pipe terminates, after a twisting route, in the front face of the well tank, and is contained by a distinctly large (by comparison with all the others) cap nut:

huSAM_yy1271com-plumb208918271_205683618121080_4555795104061667097_n.jpg

Shortages notwithstanding, I never had any hex large enough for a 10mm pipe to fit into... and come to that, neither do I have taps or dies above 10mm anyway! The only option was to once again rely on yet more of B&Q's finest from their domestic plumbing aisle!

Cutting down one of the cap nuts and chopping off a short section of male thread on a straight, compression connector would provide me with a form of stud... if only I could drill and tap an appropriate size hole in the tank... and in such a confined location under the running plate...?!

huSAM_yy1257.JPG

Eventually, (?) I decided to use a remaining stub of 10mm brass rod - tapped at one end, and the plain section soldered into the smooth bore of the cut male part.

That was relatively straightforward, but a 9mm hole in the tank was a wholly different ball game:

I do have some of those very pointy wood bits... but there was no way to get the drill, let alone with a large bit in it, or later, a tap in a chuck - into such a restricted space! The only apparent alternative in that circumstance was to wrap the bit in a piece of cloth... and rotate it with my fingers... to cut through the 6mm thickness of MDF!!

Yep, you did read that correctly!

I had to do the same again with the tap... but it being a quite different animal, kept jamming, although that time I was able to keep it going by taking advantage of the square end to grip with a pair of plyers!

"This is not so much a case of patience, persistence, nor even pure bloody mindedness... but perhaps more of complete insanity?!" I found myself ruefully pondering during the long, painful, "boring" process!

The cut-down nut fitted it all up perfectly sweetly in the end, but I was not really happy with the final appearance. I had had quite enough by the close of play on that day though.

huSAM_yy1265.JPG

After taking a good, hard look at it the following morning... I said; "Nope!" and stripped it all off again... before trudging back down the cellar stairs!

This time, I completely cut and filed off the entire, and rather gruesome looking top off the second nut from the joiner...

huSAM_yy1272.JPG

Then soldered the male portion - just a couple of turns into the now open ended nut... to give me a narrowed end with a 10mm bore...

huSAM_yy1274.JPG

The earlier - and completely unsatisfactory, halved nut is on the left in the above - and at right in the next image, below.

The new nut thus formed is now the same depth as before... but:

huSAM_yy1275.JPGhuSAM_yy1277.JPG

To my mind, it looks a significantly more meaningful - and "meaty" object?

huSAM_yy1286.JPG

I know the finished item should actually feature a slight, circular projection where the pipe is inserted - and if I had thought a little more carefully about it, could have included that at the cutting stage, but I think it will definitely have to do now!

Time for some alternative festive activities, so Seasons Greetings, and Happy New Year to you all, my fellows and such good friends!

Pete.
 
Last edited:

michael mott

Western Thunderer
A good time to take a break. Pete your hand work with off the shelf fittings modifications is inspirational! A merry Christmas to you and family.
Michael
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
A fantastic thread, Pete, and so much progress through the year. I find this totally inspirational. Best wishes to you and yours for Christmas.

Brian
 
Top