Finescale - of a sort?!

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Once more, Peter, I'm in awe of your persistence and problem solving. Also, I'm no metallurgist but Ian is quite right - quenching is not necessary and I've been told even undesirable as far as copper is concerned. However, you've resolved the issue in a different and most elegant way. Added to which that copper bar will add a nice bit of adhesive weight to the finished article. :))

Here's a thought about bending copper tube, though. I've never seen a domestic plumber anneal copper tube before bending it. Some of that stuff is really thin - (in some cases porous which is far from ideal for plumbing) - and yet bends on one of their professional benders without creasing and as far as I know they have no means of packing the inside of the pipe. Personally I've always used a spring but recognise that would not be an option for you as I doubt that bending springs are available for 9.6 mm pipe. :)

These sentences may, of course, elicit further discussion which may or may not be of interest in your thread which keeps us so entertained and amazed in equal measure. All power to your elbows, Peter.

Brian
 

Giles

Western Thunderer
I did a year as a fitter driver for a coach company, and one of the regular jobs was re-piping the air brake system. I think 10mm was the standard size, and it was reasonably thick walled stuff - cupro-nickel if I recall. Tight bends we only ever used a proper bending tool, otherwise the wall would collapse. Even so, the radius was larger than Peter described. Thin wall would be a nightmare.....!
 

Peter Insole

Western Thunderer
Thank you Tim T. for your kindness. I am glad it is an inspiration, and I continue to live in the hope that the whole project might encourage others to have a go at something similar too?!

Ah well Ian, thank you for pointing that out... but ho-hum, I did do it the daft way anyway! I suppose the only advantage was that the process was slightly speeded up by having cool metal to grab hold of straight away?!

Would quenching have had an effect on the longer term workability of the copper? I do admit that I am still afraid of doing it - every time, and even yesterday with the solid round bar, found that in the same manner as CZ121 brass; I could distinctly "feel" the initial softness of the metal, but also a quite rapid "work hardening" during each stage of the bend. Am I imagining the "Uh-oh, this doesn't want to move much more" sensation?

Thank you too Brian, and I know you are absolutely right! Perhaps I am being too timid with the stuff nowadays? I have bent a fair bit of 15mm and 22mm domestic plumbing pipe over the years... and without annealing... although I was always led to believe that it was already thus treated?!

Thank you so much Giles as well for your always encouraging replies!

One thing I can be certain of, and this hopefully will go some way towards answering your original question though Tim T.; These two very difficult, prominent, and somewhat "signature" balance pipes, plus a short, and decidedly "manageable" section of 3/16th inch blower pipe to run along the top of the saddle tank are the very last bits of coppersmithing required... and I am not particularly unhappy about that prospect either!

Overall, the tasks remaining are notably diminishing now, and it would be rather too tempting to think that I'm on the home straights, (?) however, there are some really "interesting" bits (sometimes in a sort of fearful meaning) yet to do!

Besides, I have still got to get that silly "bathtub" back off the floor and up the cellar stairs again... although I'm hoping that a little of the content will have evaporated off by now?!

Pete.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thanks for the response to mine, Peter. You mention that domestic plumbing pipe may be ready annealed, and delving in to the nooks and crannies of what still passes for a memory I suspect you are correct - an aspect of domestic plumbing I'd forgotten until now.

Brian
 

class27

Active Member
Most plumbing type benders are mandrel type with an inner and outer former, so the pipe is pushed into and kept in shape as it is bent, Quality and ease of use varies from piece to piece these days. You can buy pre-annealed, but it usually comes in coils, so you've lost some of the softness just straightening it out. If you feel it tighten up, you can stop and re-anneal, but do the whole area, nothing like hard spots to cause chaos when you're nearly done. I did or didn't quench copper depending on how much of a hurry I was in, or how close my hands were to the hot bit, it does not make much difference to the overall effect.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thanks for that @class27 . My own experience is limited to domestic plumbing so I've never used a professional pipe bender. That's useful knowledge for the memory bank but I'll probably end up pushing something important out of the way to find room... :D

Brian
 

Peter Insole

Western Thunderer
Thank you again to everyone. It has been wonderfully amusing, but is somewhat academic now that the job is done, and the emptied "tub" has been neatly stowed away back under the workbench!

My wife has been rather busy lately, and it was on one of those occasions, the other day, when left to my own devices, that I decided to deal with that dodgy and redundant vessel:

I managed to lift it round the corner, up the cellar stairs, around two more sharp bends and right across the dining room... with only a single moment where the water briefly surged perilously close to the rim:

"Woah, hold on ol' boy... you're not quite there, so don't celebrate success just yet" I says to myself.

Upon arriving in the kitchen, I realised that the sink still had crockery within, so rather than loose forward momentum, decided to continue into the "back-lobby" - where to the left side is a small, corner mounted, hand-wash basin. This is another area with very limited manoeuvring space, so upon reaching my target, I carefully positioned myself and started to tip the trough up - and commence the outpouring slightly to the right hand of the bowl - with a notion of being more able to observe the rate of flow.

I misjudged the correct angle... and it rapidly became apparent that the volume of water being discharged was completely overwhelming both the plughole and overflow...

I had also utterly failed to take into account the fact that the bowl is beautifully elliptical, in plan and profile...

It is said that in certain, and particularly dire circumstances, that time itself seems to slow right down?

Although what transpired took just a mere few seconds; I do recall thinking:

"Oh..... wow, just look at the way that wa.................. "

...................................

By the time my wife returned home, everything was more or less dry.... and she didn't say anything.... until a while afterwards anyway, when she pointed out to me that the humidity level on one of her monitors had "gone through the roof!"

Pete.
 

Stoke5D

Western Thunderer
As regards annealing copper pipe, it doesn't matter whether you quench it or let it cool naturally but I usually take the quench option since you can then work with it more quickly. Also, for copper pipe in the sizes and thicknesses more like those used on the real thing, quenching it also removes any mill scale, which is helpful of course.
 

Peter Insole

Western Thunderer
Apologies for the radio silence during the last week, but I have just been plodding on with the peculiar plumbing problems without interruption!

The long balance pipe on the right hand side of the loco had a brass flange brazed on at either end, so required a high degree of accuracy (and a fair amount of luck) when setting up and soldering! There could be no tweaking of the pipe with tweezers or even twixt thumb and fingers on this one!

A friend of mine the other day suggested that I consider (modern) adhesives as an option, stating that they are very effective these days, and with the majority of parts only being decorative requirements, might be a great deal cleaner and pleasant to use?

I answered that with; "the number of times I might have to sweat the bits apart again and re-try could get a bit messy with glue!"

"Fair do's" he replied!

Oddly, as it turned out, the aforementioned fittings went on - with no less than five wretched little M3 studs needing to align - first time! It was the slightly less critical left hand pipe, that only had a flange at the outer (saddle tank) end that fought back!

Another issue is that I am reaching the end of my stock of brass round and hex sections... slightly before the final fitting out jobs are completed! The trailing end of that problem pipe terminates, after a twisting route, in the front face of the well tank, and is contained by a distinctly large (by comparison with all the others) cap nut:

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Shortages notwithstanding, I never had any hex large enough for a 10mm pipe to fit into... and come to that, neither do I have taps or dies above 10mm anyway! The only option was to once again rely on yet more of B&Q's finest from their domestic plumbing aisle!

Cutting down one of the cap nuts and chopping off a short section of male thread on a straight, compression connector would provide me with a form of stud... if only I could drill and tap an appropriate size hole in the tank... and in such a confined location under the running plate...?!

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Eventually, (?) I decided to use a remaining stub of 10mm brass rod - tapped at one end, and the plain section soldered into the smooth bore of the cut male part.

That was relatively straightforward, but a 9mm hole in the tank was a wholly different ball game:

I do have some of those very pointy wood bits... but there was no way to get the drill, let alone with a large bit in it, or later, a tap in a chuck - into such a restricted space! The only apparent alternative in that circumstance was to wrap the bit in a piece of cloth... and rotate it with my fingers... to cut through the 6mm thickness of MDF!!

Yep, you did read that correctly!

I had to do the same again with the tap... but it being a quite different animal, kept jamming, although that time I was able to keep it going by taking advantage of the square end to grip with a pair of plyers!

"This is not so much a case of patience, persistence, nor even pure bloody mindedness... but perhaps more of complete insanity?!" I found myself ruefully pondering during the long, painful, "boring" process!

The cut-down nut fitted it all up perfectly sweetly in the end, but I was not really happy with the final appearance. I had had quite enough by the close of play on that day though.

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After taking a good, hard look at it the following morning... I said; "Nope!" and stripped it all off again... before trudging back down the cellar stairs!

This time, I completely cut and filed off the entire, and rather gruesome looking top off the second nut from the joiner...

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Then soldered the male portion - just a couple of turns into the now open ended nut... to give me a narrowed end with a 10mm bore...

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The earlier - and completely unsatisfactory, halved nut is on the left in the above - and at right in the next image, below.

The new nut thus formed is now the same depth as before... but:

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To my mind, it looks a significantly more meaningful - and "meaty" object?

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I know the finished item should actually feature a slight, circular projection where the pipe is inserted - and if I had thought a little more carefully about it, could have included that at the cutting stage, but I think it will definitely have to do now!

Time for some alternative festive activities, so Seasons Greetings, and Happy New Year to you all, my fellows and such good friends!

Pete.
 
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Peter Insole

Western Thunderer
Thank you everyone for all of your responses and replies!

After recovering from the excitement of the festive season - as well as a niggling chest infection, it is taking a while to get back fully into the swing of things!

Last year (!) I mentioned that the penultimate bit of copper plumbing required was a short section of 3/16" blower pipe to run along the top of the saddle tank. Quite unlike the more conventional railway approach; where such pipes enter the smokebox and are attached to a fitting on the lip of the blastpipe, this item simply passes through a plain hole in the side of the chimney, and thence turns upwards... more in the fashion of that applied to traction engines and road locomotives. It follows therefore that I need to finally be rid of the black paper covered, cardboard, kitchen-roll tube stack... that has been a "temporary measure" for way, way too long!

I have received two, the most recent during the last month, kind offers of help with making a tapered core for forming that chimney, and I feel honoured, flattered and am truly grateful for such generosity. While on the one hand I would be more than happy to accept, the other side is desperately fearful of imposing... especially bearing in mind my own experience of how easy it is to make promises in the spur of the moment, only to discover all sorts of impracticalities later?!

After much thought on the subject during this holiday period... and a bit of rummaging about too, I decided what I might try to do first:

I have still got a few remaining offcuts of that unspeakably evil (but admittedly sometimes quite useful) MDF... as well as a little box of cheap 'n' cheerful hole saws...

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Just about enough indeed to cut twenty two perfectly centred, if slightly ragged at the edge, circles...

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that could, with the aid of a length of M6 studding, be turned into a sort of MDF kebab!

Once the number for sufficient length had been threaded on, two more were cut from some harder plywood... one the same size as the main core - and the other of reduced diameter for fitting at the opposite end.

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The whole shebang was glued together and compressed tightly with penny washers and nuts... to form a nice, solid... sort of rolling pin!

(I do apologise, but just couldn't resist the temptation to be second to mention such a device on WT! Although I suppose that in the unlikely event of my wife deciding to menacingly brandish it in my direction; it doesn't really qualify?!)

After setting up a simple form of jig; with a drilled length of old timber clamped firmly to the edge of the workbench, I was able to rotate the assembly and steadily cut the softer stuff down towards the smaller circle with a rasp file:

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OK, so the finish is not 100 per cent, with a tiny amount of light showing through here and there, (that appears more to reveal a curiously variable consistency of the fibres, even within one sheet?) but that is of little concern. It is only a single use, and disposable core, and I trust that any minor irregularities might be lost in the laminating process to come? Besides, the prototype chimneys were made up of relatively thin steel sheet, and suffered the usual abuse and general rigours of day to day service - so a perfectly smooth and even surface might look a bit odd anyway?!

Thinking more about all of this effort - and quite apart from what we already know about the blizzard of highly toxic dust created when working with MDF, (I have had to make a solemn vow not to use it hereinafter!) - I could have saved myself a whole load of bother by chopping up a real rolling pin?

My dear lady wife is not (amongst her many other talents) into pastry making, so she would not likely even notice if it disappeared from the kitchen drawer? If I had, then carefully cleaned and surreptitiously replaced it afterwards, I could answer any future enquiry as to it's revised shape with the comment;

"Ah, I did that so it would be easier for you to roll out nice circles for pie tops... just in case you ever fancied it... ahem!"

Hmm... then I might come to regret not disposing of another potential household weapon?!

Pete.
 

Peter Insole

Western Thunderer
Well, rolling and laminating 0.4mm ply I have done before... but not so far on such a long, thin core, so I confess to having been somewhat over confident and blissfully unaware of the tribulations to come! Just managing to hold the first sheet in place while the second was glued up and clamped with cable ties turned out to be a nightmare task.

Eventually, and after expending rather too many expletives; three layers were set and left to cure:

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After removing the core I found weak spot near the top, where it appeared that the glue had not quite grabbed at the joint, probably as a result of all the grappling involved?!

Carefully prizing the the offending area apart with a scalpel and then working in some fresh glue finally did the trick I'm relieved to say.

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Seeing the setting chimney thus parked in situ rather put me in mind of the familiar old Gaselee tugs, seen so often moored on buoys, with some in light steam on Sunday afternoons around Tower Pier... A regular haunt so very many moons ago!

Back when I was fitting the tank filler rim I picked up an extra length of larger, D shape styrene strip to form the stovepipe cap. as per this:-

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The original chimney wrapper and rim was fully flush riveted, but "Wren" clearly now carries a replacement, (and in places rather crudely) welded affair - that appears to have been rigged up in the early 1950's (?)

While the skinnier tank filler version had proved to be a task, forming the heavier D shape by gently heating without completely distorting it was almost impossible this time... but after sleeping on the problem, (no... not literally!) it did come out round (ish!) in the end.

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The flatness at the back of the strip was mostly lost in the heating and bending process, but after using some brass rod to form a set of rivets, the rim was locked sufficiently firm in place and unable to shift. Awkwardly though, while I would like that lip to assist in maintaining the integrity of the laminated tube, the wrangled, and slightly mangled strip was not perfectly in contact all the way around!

Thank goodness for that lovely, durable Milliput stuff! As the rivets were hammered reasonably flush on the interior, I was able to slide the chimney tight back onto the former for rigidity, and force the epoxy putty well down into all the gaps, top and bottom. When set, the whole thing became extremely solid, close to circular, and a little bit prettier into the bargain!

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What was not so pretty was the effect, and entirely a result of using cable ties to clamp the long, vertical seam during setting.

I had considered tightening the ties over a narrow strip of wood to apply even pressure along the full length of the tube, but then feared loss of firm contact at other points of the circumference, so decided not to take that chance. Despite the ties being closely spaced, the otherwise superbly pliable 0.4mm material surprisingly still bowed slightly in the spaces between. The veneers are however so fine that when rubbing back to level there appeared to be far more material removed than in reality?!

Another saving grace, strength wise, is that the original chimney seams were butt jointed and countersunk riveted to a broad strip down the inside. Thankfully, an Horwich draughtsman responsible for one of the General Arrangement drawings decided (unusually) to reveal the precise number and locations of those rivets in one of the elevations, so at least I had something positive to work from! Less fortunately, I had insufficient remaining brass rod of an appropriate size to make those rivets - and I was unable to acquire any fine brass panel pins locally either, so set about searching for any alternative.

The result caused some justifiably quizzical looks here at home...

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It did seem to be a strange solution, but after trialling the lower four, and being quite satisfied with the effect, I went ahead and screwed the remainder in place. I did feel that there was actually a distinct advantage in using something that threaded through, and assisted with binding the individual layers of wood - even before the ends were fully burred over.

I would have preferred the eyelets to have been genuine, and slightly more malleable brass, rather than a harder, plated steel, but using a heavy section of bar clamped in the bench vice as an extended anvil, the screws still worked quite adequately:

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Taking my usual "belt and braces" approach, I covered the area around the finished "rivets" in cyano, relying on the adhesive to thoroughly soak into the grain all around the threads! Barring any unforeseen disaster; I trust that the little chimney might now at least have a half decent chance of retaining it's shape for a fair while yet?!

Not too much rubbing down was necessary, as the chimney will eventually require a coat of some very thickly applied, gooey paint - almost slapped and stippled on, to go some way towards replicating a working prototype rather than an exuberantly overdone museum exhibit!

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The observant might note that the drawing that can be seen hanging over the roundel in so many previous images has been taken down?

Now that the chimney is at last fitted, there is no further need for such a feature of our lives... and that unbelievably hereabouts anyway, has been continuously displayed on the wall for just over nine years!

Pete.
 
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