oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Amazing, Pete. Just amazing. (And I go along with the comment about the wood grain, but I don't suppose any railway anywhere ever wood grained brass....)
Brian
Brian
Finescale - of a sort?!
- Thread starter Peter Insole
- Start date
Boyblunder
Western Thunderer
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
It does seem a shame to paint it! I am hoping the covering will adhere after all the handling too - as I just can't resist the temptation of constantly fondling the beautiful material!
Carved hardwood is so smooth and sooo tactile!
Way back, when I was but a mere sprog, my family were keen to encourage my artistic tendencies by submitting my work to the Royal Drawing Society, Annual Exhibition in London, for three consecutive years. After one preview, a well known art critic effusively wrote that he considered that I was the "new Whistler"!
Ah well, not to be, but how wrong was he?! Could anyone have imagined that his error was only a matter of spelling?!
Otherwise, thank you all for your kind comments!
Pete.
Carved hardwood is so smooth and sooo tactile!
Way back, when I was but a mere sprog, my family were keen to encourage my artistic tendencies by submitting my work to the Royal Drawing Society, Annual Exhibition in London, for three consecutive years. After one preview, a well known art critic effusively wrote that he considered that I was the "new Whistler"!
Ah well, not to be, but how wrong was he?! Could anyone have imagined that his error was only a matter of spelling?!
Otherwise, thank you all for your kind comments!
Pete.
Eastsidepilot
Western Thunderer
Pete, a bag of sand and a couple of wooden boxes, we could cast a real one from that ! 
.......................got me coat 
Nice woodwork by the way
Col.
.......................got me coat Nice woodwork by the way
Col.
Overseer
Western Thunderer
There is special primer for oak to block the tannin and give paint a chance of staying on. Last time I specified it was around 1997 for the new French Oak panelling in the Blue drawing room at Waddesdon Manor. It looked amazing before it was painted and still did afterwards, but in a different way. Your safety valves will look just right, and we will all know they are oak.
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Funny you should say that Col... the thought had crossed my mind, for just a nanosecond... before I remembered there would be a cost!
There is a reason why I had briefly wondered if a casting might be worthwhile though... as you will see in the following:
The only practical way that I could see to carve the cast branch off the main valve column for the whistle mount was to make it as a separate piece. Quite apart from not having a lump of Oak (or indeed any other suitable timber) of the right proportions to include the branch, the complex shaping at the top intersection point was a bit too brain scrambling for me to even contemplate an attempt!
An offcut from the main proved to be perfect... if just a little fiddly to work:
I had to drill the holes first, while the wee block was still in the square, although to reduce the risk of splitting the grain, I also had to chisel out a section on the wobbly end to provide a small section of flat for the bit to start on.
This particular hole had to be at a shallow angle, so I packed the vice of the drill table as well.
Then yet more of the dust generating fun got going again:
Oh, by the way, I nearly forgot to record the result of that previous drilling exercise, so made sure I took this shot before continuing.
Can you tell where this is going yet?
After an awful lot of fettling, flattening, fidgeting and fitting of pegs for a final, super strong glue up...
The finished item was finally fixed firmly in place:
Yep! It is hollow all the way through!
(I ran a cable tie in and out before the adhesive had cured to check that none had squidged out and was blocking the double bent passageways!)
I know... I know, it must be way beyond bonkers to even think of perhaps fitting a working whistle (possibly using something like a Co2 cartridge?) at some later date... just imagining how the neighbours might become thoroughly annoyed during the summer season timetable!
It did seem to be a good idea to at least give myself the option of being able to feed a slender, flexible tube through, and down into the large, hollow dome below?!
Pete.
There is a reason why I had briefly wondered if a casting might be worthwhile though... as you will see in the following:
The only practical way that I could see to carve the cast branch off the main valve column for the whistle mount was to make it as a separate piece. Quite apart from not having a lump of Oak (or indeed any other suitable timber) of the right proportions to include the branch, the complex shaping at the top intersection point was a bit too brain scrambling for me to even contemplate an attempt!
An offcut from the main proved to be perfect... if just a little fiddly to work:
I had to drill the holes first, while the wee block was still in the square, although to reduce the risk of splitting the grain, I also had to chisel out a section on the wobbly end to provide a small section of flat for the bit to start on.
This particular hole had to be at a shallow angle, so I packed the vice of the drill table as well.
Then yet more of the dust generating fun got going again:
Oh, by the way, I nearly forgot to record the result of that previous drilling exercise, so made sure I took this shot before continuing.
Can you tell where this is going yet?
After an awful lot of fettling, flattening, fidgeting and fitting of pegs for a final, super strong glue up...
The finished item was finally fixed firmly in place:
Yep! It is hollow all the way through!
(I ran a cable tie in and out before the adhesive had cured to check that none had squidged out and was blocking the double bent passageways!)
I know... I know, it must be way beyond bonkers to even think of perhaps fitting a working whistle (possibly using something like a Co2 cartridge?) at some later date... just imagining how the neighbours might become thoroughly annoyed during the summer season timetable!
It did seem to be a good idea to at least give myself the option of being able to feed a slender, flexible tube through, and down into the large, hollow dome below?!
Pete.
timbowales
Western Thunderer
Or you could thread some wires through and have a sugar cube loudspeaker hidden in the whittled whistle......
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Yes indeed, something of that order thank you Tim... It would certainly be a slightly less potentially explosive way to go about it?!
I'm getting a bit excited now...!!
Pete.
I'm getting a bit excited now...!!
Pete.
michael mott
Western Thunderer
For some reason I thought that this piece was much larger than it really is, or is that a giant hand? wonderful work and fantastic work building the chimney as well.
Michael
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Thank you Michael, and I'm sorry it has taken a week to reply, but I have been (not so) quietly getting on rather than logging in!
Obtaining an idea of scale from photographs is always potentially problematic - and at times almost impossible... which subject leads quite nicely into the latest update:
I found this fella being offered for a very reasonable fee online, and thought it might be something worth having a bit of a play with:
Although to be fair, the dimensions of the "Wilesco" whistle were published with the images, it turned out to be much, much smaller than I had anticipated! The little instrument did however provide a valuable insight, and inspiration in how to make something that works simply - while it pretends to be something that it is not!
Closer study on the subject of steam (and air) whistles reveal, for those who might be interested, that there are two main types; namely the "bell", and what could be referred to as an "organ pipe" variety. Many commentators seem to get confused when describing the distinct differences in construction, although admittedly their actual operation is quite similar.
On both types, the upper portion is the "resonator", that effectively makes the sound, and to some degree determines the pitch and volume of the note. The method of supplying an aimed stream of air (or steam) is notably different though.
On an organ pipe - which may, or may not be open at the top, there is the quaintly titled "fipple plug", that completely encloses the base of the resonator tube, but for a narrow, angled slot in it's side to form a restricted "windway". A shaped hole, or "window", with a sharp, top edge is cut in the tube immediately above the fipple.
The bell however, has a large, semi spherical chamber at the bottom, with a hollow, perforated column rising through the centre that supports a flat topped disc, with a taper underneath that reduces to form a very slender "wind" gap all around the circumference and lip of the chamber. The column continues, now solid, to hold the entirely separate, enclosed resonator at the top. I suspect that the hollow bell also reverberates along with the gaseous content to significantly increase the ultimate volume - and tone produced?
I am given to understand that the frequencies delivered by the latter form may be more effective, especially at distance, but come at the price of using a far greater rate of flow to function properly? Wilesco, (and Mamod incidentally) appear to have got round the triple problem of the cost and difficulty of making a proper bell function in such a small scale, as well as not wanting their customers to completely drain the steam pressure out of a tiny, spirit fired, table-top, pot boiler with each single operation of the valve!!
In the posted image above, you can see that the chamber and bell are simply decorative, fake items only - that are crudely hiding a tiny "organ pipe" inside! The very top of the fipple window can just be observed above the lower, pretend chamber.
Blowing, even lightly through this thing produces an absolutely awful, shrill, piercing shriek... that would be most unwelcomed anywhere around here, let alone being quite an unsuitable voice for our venerable locomotive!
Having now filled my head with all this stuff, I have also started looking carefully at the various possibilities of installing an electronic alternative:
I'm afraid to say that whilst I have occasionally been impressed, I am not entirely convinced that screaming diodes really do it for me. Maybe it is the way that amplifiers and speakers in the end do not behave in quite the same way as purely mechanical acoustic generators? Also, a significant issue in this case is that I am not at all prepared to rig up any form of additional, "remote" digital devices to control specific, programmed sound effects - as that would defeat the whole object of having appropriate steam locomotive "style" levers and taps for prototypical functions wherever practically possible!
Having made such dreadfully damning statements, and as mentioned in a previous post, the cleanness and safety aspect may yet sway my ultimate decision?!
Oh dear, all this tomfoolery must surely prove that I am not only out of my tree... but right across the meadow and well off down the lane - if I ever imagined it might be a good idea to go down this crazy route?
Surely, it is worth a try?!
More of B&Q's best brass bits and bobs, plus some remaining round rod chopped up on the workbench later...
and spun in the (shamefully abused?) drill press later...
We now have a two piece resonator!
As per prototype, the little ball on top is threaded and screwed through the bell to attach it to the central, supporting column - although in practice, this will have be into a notably larger organ pipe than Wilesco's "squeaker"!
I was so busy worrying it, that I quite forgot to take photo's when forming the fipple... and only realised the omission once it was all soldered up!
The width and depth of the window was cut out of the pipe as a complete guesstimate... and I had absolutely no idea whether or not it would work... or what tune it might play, if indeed any?!
Having made sure that it was scrupulously washed and totally free of flux, I took a deep breath... pursed my lips firmly around the fipple... and gave it a blow..........................
Ouch!
I am getting increasingly mutt and jeff these days... but I heard that...
...and so probably did half the street!
Thankfully, the bad-old-days have gone, otherwise I could be sure that I might have been quickly surrounded by a bunch of burly policemen, with their truncheons all drawn at the ready!
The pitch is still quite high, but curiously, I discovered that by moving my thumb and forefinger over the fipple window, and thus progressively narrowing the gap, the tone would drop considerably... right down to quite a deep "hoot"! I had always assumed that the size of the tube determined the note... and I dare say that plays a role... but it is certainly as much, if not slightly more to do with the relationship between the pipe and window proportions.
I decided to make an adjustable collar from some thin brass etch waste to tune it, and when satisfied, was going to fix it in place. Later however, (after this series of pics were taken) when attempting to cut a thread on the base of the fipple plug, I managed to accidentally, and disastrously deform the the K&S tube - so had to sweat off both ends and cut a fresh one! The end result is a much neater job - that it still makes a nice sound!
A dummy chamber required yet more bits and pieces from the familiar source:
A lash up job on a 15mm compression reducer, with the smaller nut tightened firmly up and then soldered in place did look a bit like overkill, but it was the only way to obtain sufficient meat in the right places for shaping down to the base!
There was not an awful lot of brass remaining after that, and the finished profile was still not quite correct. It is a bit too straight sided at the lip, rather than a continuous curve, but without any tools or other means to shape the innards, I am constrained by what is available, and must be satisfied with how it turns out!
It seems to be proving a hit - even before it is attached to the engine... as everyone, young and old, wants to have a go at blowing it! I fear a visit from an inevitably humourless "hop-along and the sheriff's men" anyway at this rate?
Pete.
Obtaining an idea of scale from photographs is always potentially problematic - and at times almost impossible... which subject leads quite nicely into the latest update:
I found this fella being offered for a very reasonable fee online, and thought it might be something worth having a bit of a play with:
Although to be fair, the dimensions of the "Wilesco" whistle were published with the images, it turned out to be much, much smaller than I had anticipated! The little instrument did however provide a valuable insight, and inspiration in how to make something that works simply - while it pretends to be something that it is not!
Closer study on the subject of steam (and air) whistles reveal, for those who might be interested, that there are two main types; namely the "bell", and what could be referred to as an "organ pipe" variety. Many commentators seem to get confused when describing the distinct differences in construction, although admittedly their actual operation is quite similar.
On both types, the upper portion is the "resonator", that effectively makes the sound, and to some degree determines the pitch and volume of the note. The method of supplying an aimed stream of air (or steam) is notably different though.
On an organ pipe - which may, or may not be open at the top, there is the quaintly titled "fipple plug", that completely encloses the base of the resonator tube, but for a narrow, angled slot in it's side to form a restricted "windway". A shaped hole, or "window", with a sharp, top edge is cut in the tube immediately above the fipple.
The bell however, has a large, semi spherical chamber at the bottom, with a hollow, perforated column rising through the centre that supports a flat topped disc, with a taper underneath that reduces to form a very slender "wind" gap all around the circumference and lip of the chamber. The column continues, now solid, to hold the entirely separate, enclosed resonator at the top. I suspect that the hollow bell also reverberates along with the gaseous content to significantly increase the ultimate volume - and tone produced?
I am given to understand that the frequencies delivered by the latter form may be more effective, especially at distance, but come at the price of using a far greater rate of flow to function properly? Wilesco, (and Mamod incidentally) appear to have got round the triple problem of the cost and difficulty of making a proper bell function in such a small scale, as well as not wanting their customers to completely drain the steam pressure out of a tiny, spirit fired, table-top, pot boiler with each single operation of the valve!!
In the posted image above, you can see that the chamber and bell are simply decorative, fake items only - that are crudely hiding a tiny "organ pipe" inside! The very top of the fipple window can just be observed above the lower, pretend chamber.
Blowing, even lightly through this thing produces an absolutely awful, shrill, piercing shriek... that would be most unwelcomed anywhere around here, let alone being quite an unsuitable voice for our venerable locomotive!
Having now filled my head with all this stuff, I have also started looking carefully at the various possibilities of installing an electronic alternative:
I'm afraid to say that whilst I have occasionally been impressed, I am not entirely convinced that screaming diodes really do it for me. Maybe it is the way that amplifiers and speakers in the end do not behave in quite the same way as purely mechanical acoustic generators? Also, a significant issue in this case is that I am not at all prepared to rig up any form of additional, "remote" digital devices to control specific, programmed sound effects - as that would defeat the whole object of having appropriate steam locomotive "style" levers and taps for prototypical functions wherever practically possible!
Having made such dreadfully damning statements, and as mentioned in a previous post, the cleanness and safety aspect may yet sway my ultimate decision?!
Oh dear, all this tomfoolery must surely prove that I am not only out of my tree... but right across the meadow and well off down the lane - if I ever imagined it might be a good idea to go down this crazy route?
Surely, it is worth a try?!
More of B&Q's best brass bits and bobs, plus some remaining round rod chopped up on the workbench later...
and spun in the (shamefully abused?) drill press later...
We now have a two piece resonator!
As per prototype, the little ball on top is threaded and screwed through the bell to attach it to the central, supporting column - although in practice, this will have be into a notably larger organ pipe than Wilesco's "squeaker"!
I was so busy worrying it, that I quite forgot to take photo's when forming the fipple... and only realised the omission once it was all soldered up!
The width and depth of the window was cut out of the pipe as a complete guesstimate... and I had absolutely no idea whether or not it would work... or what tune it might play, if indeed any?!
Having made sure that it was scrupulously washed and totally free of flux, I took a deep breath... pursed my lips firmly around the fipple... and gave it a blow..........................
Ouch!
I am getting increasingly mutt and jeff these days... but I heard that...
...and so probably did half the street!
Thankfully, the bad-old-days have gone, otherwise I could be sure that I might have been quickly surrounded by a bunch of burly policemen, with their truncheons all drawn at the ready!
The pitch is still quite high, but curiously, I discovered that by moving my thumb and forefinger over the fipple window, and thus progressively narrowing the gap, the tone would drop considerably... right down to quite a deep "hoot"! I had always assumed that the size of the tube determined the note... and I dare say that plays a role... but it is certainly as much, if not slightly more to do with the relationship between the pipe and window proportions.
I decided to make an adjustable collar from some thin brass etch waste to tune it, and when satisfied, was going to fix it in place. Later however, (after this series of pics were taken) when attempting to cut a thread on the base of the fipple plug, I managed to accidentally, and disastrously deform the the K&S tube - so had to sweat off both ends and cut a fresh one! The end result is a much neater job - that it still makes a nice sound!
A dummy chamber required yet more bits and pieces from the familiar source:
A lash up job on a 15mm compression reducer, with the smaller nut tightened firmly up and then soldered in place did look a bit like overkill, but it was the only way to obtain sufficient meat in the right places for shaping down to the base!
There was not an awful lot of brass remaining after that, and the finished profile was still not quite correct. It is a bit too straight sided at the lip, rather than a continuous curve, but without any tools or other means to shape the innards, I am constrained by what is available, and must be satisfied with how it turns out!
It seems to be proving a hit - even before it is attached to the engine... as everyone, young and old, wants to have a go at blowing it! I fear a visit from an inevitably humourless "hop-along and the sheriff's men" anyway at this rate?
Pete.
Last edited:
timbowales
Western Thunderer
As ever wonderful stuff, Peter
michael mott
Western Thunderer
Pete your ingenuity and persistence are remarkable! the whistle looks fabulous. A small bellows operated by a rotating lever with a paddle hidden behind the tank or some other way of creating the wind needed to create the sound?
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Thanks guys for your most welcomed replies.
Don't worry... I have a cunning plan...!
Meanwhile, the fiendish little operating valve is next on the list - and after much searching, I am sad to say there is absolutely nothing remotely suitable available out there. I was thinking of butchering some more Mamod parts... before realising that they were so basic and simple anyway, that it would probably be easier to start from scratch?!
Pete.
Don't worry... I have a cunning plan...!
Meanwhile, the fiendish little operating valve is next on the list - and after much searching, I am sad to say there is absolutely nothing remotely suitable available out there. I was thinking of butchering some more Mamod parts... before realising that they were so basic and simple anyway, that it would probably be easier to start from scratch?!
Pete.
Overseer
Western Thunderer
Are all the vintage motorcycle fuel taps/petcocks too big? There seem to be some replicas on Ebay etc which might be a good starting point, and cheap.
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Thank you again Overseer and Fitzroy for your most helpful suggestions. I'm afraid that, as usual, I am insisting on making life as difficult as possible!
What I really want is an operating valve that, at the very least anyway, reasonably replicates the primary function - if not a precise replica of the original; as in the view below:
When I irresponsibly declared that there was nothing available on the market I was being somewhat misleading.
I plead guilty to the fact that I was completely discounting the existence of this little beauty, (below) and that apart from the stoved, matt black finish, presumably applied to hide the brazed tube construction (?) on the body, would otherwise be perfectly acceptable... but with so many other expensive and demanding jobs still outstanding on the railway as a whole, I am simply not prepared to spend between £30 and £40 in order to obtain one!!
(copyright image shown here for reference purposes only)
Incidentally, the photograph of "Wren" reveals that at some point, an individual at the NRM has boo-booed again, and reinstalled the collar and lever assembly upside down - so in that respect the miniature version is marginally closer to the prototype!
Without being able to inspect the product prior to purchase, it may turn out to be an expensive mistake anyway; as I do rather suspect there is a distinct possibility that while screwing it into the branch, the elongated barrel could foul part of the main safety valve?!
I am just now trying to work out the details and best methods of utilising even more bits of dismantled domestic plumbing and other bits from the scrap box in an attempt to make one of my own. For me, this will be yet another leap into completely unknown territory, and although I can draw some comfort from discovering that the whistle requires little more than a mere waft of air to function, I am particularly lacking confidence this time.
The challenge is going to be a bundle of fun though, that's for sure!
Pete.
What I really want is an operating valve that, at the very least anyway, reasonably replicates the primary function - if not a precise replica of the original; as in the view below:
When I irresponsibly declared that there was nothing available on the market I was being somewhat misleading.
I plead guilty to the fact that I was completely discounting the existence of this little beauty, (below) and that apart from the stoved, matt black finish, presumably applied to hide the brazed tube construction (?) on the body, would otherwise be perfectly acceptable... but with so many other expensive and demanding jobs still outstanding on the railway as a whole, I am simply not prepared to spend between £30 and £40 in order to obtain one!!
(copyright image shown here for reference purposes only)
Incidentally, the photograph of "Wren" reveals that at some point, an individual at the NRM has boo-booed again, and reinstalled the collar and lever assembly upside down - so in that respect the miniature version is marginally closer to the prototype!
Without being able to inspect the product prior to purchase, it may turn out to be an expensive mistake anyway; as I do rather suspect there is a distinct possibility that while screwing it into the branch, the elongated barrel could foul part of the main safety valve?!
I am just now trying to work out the details and best methods of utilising even more bits of dismantled domestic plumbing and other bits from the scrap box in an attempt to make one of my own. For me, this will be yet another leap into completely unknown territory, and although I can draw some comfort from discovering that the whistle requires little more than a mere waft of air to function, I am particularly lacking confidence this time.
The challenge is going to be a bundle of fun though, that's for sure!
Pete.
Tim Watson
Western Thunderer
I’m so pleased you are not buying the ready made valve: we wouldn’t have had the pleasure of seeing you massage a lump of brass into a far better representation of reality.
Tim
Tim
Last edited:
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Thanks Tim! I am happy to confirm that massaging, mangling or otherwise mutilating small metal parts starts on the morrow!
I have found that a 10mm, straight compression coupler (I had to cough up £2.77 + discount today - as I had chopped my last one in half yonks ago!) will do very nicely for the main valve barrel.
The gag about being "committed" has been done before, so I won't bother this time!
Pete.
I have found that a 10mm, straight compression coupler (I had to cough up £2.77 + discount today - as I had chopped my last one in half yonks ago!) will do very nicely for the main valve barrel.
The gag about being "committed" has been done before, so I won't bother this time!
Pete.