Genesis of the LMS coach

LarryG

Western Thunderer
The Midland Railway is generally associated with clerestory roof coaches and for good reason; It did not adopt the semi-elliptical roof until 1915. Below is a typical coach from the pre-1905 Bain era (model built to D470 from Bill Bedford etched sides)....
WEB MR coaches 1.jpg WEB MR coaches 2.jpg

It was claimed the elliptical roof would bring with it a saving in cost of £35 to £40 per vehicle and 12 cwt in weight. The first coaches were 8' 6" wide non-corridor coaches built in 1915, but it wasn't until 1916-7 that the new roof appeared on a batch of experimental steel-ended corridor coaches. All were 9' wide although the brake third and four brake composites had recessed flat sides at the brake end. Grab handles were the 'lazy S' type...
WEB MR coaches 3.jpg
Ends and gangways were built of steel with two vertical 'L' struts and stronger buffing gear to minimize the danger of telescoping in the event of collisions.....
WEB MR coaches 5.jpg
The experimental bulbiron 10' bogies were a much stronger version of an older 10' bogie but with longer springs...
WEB MR coaches 4.jpg
A D1046 brake composite finished in full Midland Railway livery....
WEB MR coaches 6.jpg
The full length bogie stepboards were removed beginning in the 1930's although some coaches retained them at the brake end while others had a short stepboard under the rear axlebox. A D1046 in early BR livery. They were withdrawn between 1952 and January 1957 so none got BR maroon....
WEB MR coaches 7.jpg

To be continued...
 
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LarryG

Western Thunderer
The Lot numbers got a bit messed around at this time due to post WW1 shortages of materials leading to delays and the rebuilding of ex.Ambulance coaches into normal passenger stock. The D1196 MR and M & GSW 65' first class dining cars completed in 1921 were the first to be built in the Derby shops since the appointment of R. W. Reid as C&W Superintendent.
WEB MR coaches 8.jpg

They were built on the channel section steel solebars with the same heavy buffing gear as on the experimental coaches, and trussing was with angle section rather than rod & queenpost. Ride-height of of my 4mm scale test model was found to be too high so shallower solebars were etched to allow the body to sit lower on the bogies (as below)...
WEB MR coaches 10.jpg
The 24-seat saloon was of walnut throughout, the upholstery being of standard blue cloth. We rather went to town with the etched seat ends on the models. The MR open saloon coaches had introduced the two-window style to each seating bay some years before and this style was to play a big part on the LMS from 1923 to 1929....
WEB MR coaches 9.jpg
 
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parky

Western Thunderer
Those 12 wheelers look glorious Larry, such a shame you didn't get on with 7mm as we would have been in for some cracking big coaches

That said keep on going with these posts as all these gems of historical fact help us to understand things far better and even in 4mm your craftsmanship is evident
 

LarryG

Western Thunderer
Thanks Alan. I looked at producing coaches for 0 gauge, but it would have been a big move in more ways than one at my age.
 

LarryG

Western Thunderer
The mass-production technique developed by Reid towards the end of the Midlands separate existence was to become a lasting legacy to LMS coach building, but there was not much time for him to make his mark on on carriage design. Apart from the new dining cars mentioned above,, Reid had to deal with some unfinished ambulance carriages. The MR had adopted long widows on the corridor side around 1907 but they wouldn't have suited an open ambulance coach with beds or cots and so they were built with doors and quarter lights on both sides. The unfinished vehicles were converted into brake firsts to D1255...
WEB MR Coaches 11.jpg

Of note were the panelled ends, the pre-1907 style corridor side with fake doors, rod & queenpost trussing and lightweight 8' bogies as used for years on clerestory stock. At least one of these 56' 6" coaches got BR post 1956 lined maroon, hence the livery of the model...
WEB MR Coaches 12.jpg
I should add that both models above were sprayed with the same crimson lake cellulose, but only one was photographed in bright sunlight.
 

LarryG

Western Thunderer
Continuing with MR 56' 6" coaches, the D1252 was a corridor third. The ex.Ambulance coaches also had identical sides with small quarter lights and four doors on the corridor side. The others had long windows as displayed on the BR blood & custard model. Of note are the panelled ends and the toilet droplight window, hence the lined out surround...
WEB MR Coaches 13.jpg
Bogies were a heavier version than on clerestory stock, but the chassis still had wooden head stocks and rod & queenpost trussing....
WEB MR Coaches 14.jpg
The following vehicles virtually established the style for the LMS Period I corridors having 9' bogies, angle trussed underframes and matchboard ends. This is a D1281 corridor composite. The model was built to represent later LMS and BR condition with diagonally opposed short bogie stepboards...
WEB MR coaches 14B.jpg

Finished in as completed in 1922 in MR livery. The angle trussing simply replaced rod & queenpost so that the battery boxes continued to be supported from the floor and so were behind the trussing. The lavatory window was no longer a droplight, but had an opening 'toplight' vent above the main window...
WEB MR Coaches 15.jpg

The D1252 corridor third was similarly styled...
WEB MR Coaches 15A.jpg
Completing the trio was a neatly styled brake composite...
WEB MR coaches 16.jpg

Note the first class half-compartment, an old Midland tradition and reputedly popular with courting couples...

WEB MR Coaches 16B.jpg
By the time the the D1284 brake third and D1285 brake first were built in 1922-4, someone had twigged that deeper trussing would support the battery box and other equipment. This became the LMS standard for the whole of the company's existence. The last of the D1284 brake thirds was built in 1924.
WEB MR coaches 17B.jpg

Quite a number of the aforementioned MR coaches of various types were withdrawn in 1942, presumably wartime casualties. The remainder entered BR and the last survivors went in 1959-60.
 
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LarryG

Western Thunderer
LMS Period I (1923-29)

The LMS D1353 third class open coach derived from the MR diagram book and was the type that launched Reid's mass production form of coach building. They had MR recessed handles and were basically what the Midland would have built had the grouping not happened....
WEB LMS coaches 1.jpg

The LMS D1354 corridor first which followed was quick to break the mould by eliminating the draughty external doors from compartments by introducing the 'twin-window' style to side corridor stock...
WEB LMS Coaches 2.jpg

However, the corridor side was pure Midland in styling. As an aside, these two photos show the folly of citing colour photos when debating railway colours. Same coach ~ same time and yet the cream looks darker while the red actually looks lighter (below).... :))
WEB LMS Coaches 2B.jpg

The LMS D1693 open third was also pure Midland in styling even though that company never built any. The design was also chosen to be mass-produced by outside contractors as an 'all-steel' version....
WEB LMS coaches 4.jpg

The LMS D1695 corridor third could be mistaken for a Midland coach, indeed the first thirty-five had recessed door handles. Deeper trussrods gave them away as LMS vehicles....
WEB LMS Coaches 5.jpg
 
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LarryG

Western Thunderer
It was quite noticeable that the all-door design continued for third class, indeed the humble D1696 corridor brake third (below) continued to be built until 1930.
WEB LMS coaches D1696.jpg
The all-door corridor composite came in a variety of forms to D1694 with 3X 1st class and 4X 3rd class, theD1751 (below) with reversed accommodation, and the D1752 which was a throwback to the Midland D1281, but with LMS door handles and chassis....
WEB LMS coaches D1751.jpg
The all-door D1754 corridor brake compo put the first class over the bogie while the D1755 re-positioned the first class compartments between the bogies at the luggage end as pictured below...
WEB LMS coaches D1755.jpg

A late Period I vehicle was the D1716, which appeared after a series of projected designs had been studied and rejected, the desire being to stem adverse comment about the standard of accommodation provided in composite coaches. While the twin-window arrangement remained for compartments, the corridor side had large (4' 6") windows opposite the compartments. These windows quickly led to the adoption of the low-waist Period II styling...
WEB LMS Coaches 1716.jpg
 
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LarryG

Western Thunderer
I have built a good many LMS coach diagrams, but the images I have posted are only intended to be a n overview. Before closing on LMS Period I stock, the following coaches will suffice as representative of non-corridor stock and parcels vans. First off was the D1685 lavatory brake third built between 1926 and 1929...
WEB LMS Coaches D1685.jpg

An interior view showing how the compartments allowed a limited access to the toilets....
WEB LMS Coaches D1686B.jpg

The Period I D1778 50' parcels vans established the style for all subsequent full brake to LMS design...WEB LMS Coaches D1778.jpg

Diagram D1715 covered the 360 'all-steel' full brakes built wholly by outside contractors from 1926. Their construction straddled Period I and II periods...
WEB LMS Coaches D1715.jpg
Because of their strong construction, these vehicles did not require conventional trussed underframes, and so they looked rather naked on the side that lacked a battery box...
WEB LMS Coaches D1715B.jpg
 
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simond

Western Thunderer
Larry

These are very lovely. I model in 7mm, noted your comments about not going there, but I’m interested how you do the paint jobs, which are detailed, and precise... and about half the size of what I try to achieve..

How do you do it?

Thx
Simon
 

LarryG

Western Thunderer
Larry

These are very lovely. I model in 7mm, noted your comments about not going there, but I’m interested how you do the paint jobs, which are detailed, and precise... and about half the size of what I try to achieve..

How do you do it?

Thanks Simon. To begin at the beginning: Following years of painting for others, I became a full-time model locomotive painter in 1972, but ended up painting far more coaches than anything else. A compressor and DeVilbis sraygun had already been set up in the late 1960's. Three Kern Swiss draftsman's lining pens and two lining compasses were also invested in at that time. This covers the equipment I use. I went to Art School full-time 1955-58 so this probably helped.

All the coaches are sprayed either with an aerosol (primer) or spraygun (colours) using cellulose paint. Black lining is done in cellulose for speed mostly. Cream/yellow lining on the coaches is also done in cellulose where lining is straight. Where corners are present, as on full panelled coaches, the lining is done with a specially small and fine lining pen. It has been that pens sole task for just about 50 years. Corners are done in Humbrol gloss No.7 enamel with chrome yellow added. Coaches in simple livery such as the LMS 1934 thru' to BR style are lined in tinter yellow cellulose. A steel ruler is used at all times. It has a strip of masking tape attached on one side to prevent the ruler slipping off projections such as door handles.

For years I used clear cellulose as varnish blown on with plenty of air to make a satin finish. More recently I have taken a speedier and more consistent route by using Halfords Satin Lacquer. This is often decanted into the spraygun first so that i have more control than offered by a rattlecan.

I hope this description helps
 

LarryG

Western Thunderer
LMS Period II (1930-32)

Period I style coaches continued building until 1930 well after the introduction of Period II coaches, therefore only a relatively small number of the latter were built. Nevertheless, the Period II low waist body styling represented major improvements in design and amenity. The D1782 corridor third brought with it deeper windows and luxury 6' 6" compartments. Like other early Period II coaches, it still had the decorative raised panelling...
WEB LMS Coaches D1782B.jpg
The brake third version was a flush-sided 'all-steel' vehicle built by the steel industry, and again it had 6'6" third class compartments....
WEB LMS Coaches D1730.jpg

Period II deep window styling took over from the earlier two-window style. This is a D1807 third class open coach....
WEB LMS Coaches D1807.jpg

The 12-wheel dining cars looked particularly magnificent with their deep windows surmounted by Stones vents. The D1811 composites were regarded as neutral vehicles and did not carry class figures on the external doors. Instead, they had detachable class indicator boards fitted in the windows which could be changed, if need be, to suit diner requirements.
WEB LMS Coaches D1811.jpg
 
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simond

Western Thunderer
Thanks Simon. To begin at the beginning: Following years of painting for others, I became a full-time model locomotive painter in 1972, but ended up painting far more coaches than anything else. A compressor and DeVilbis sraygun had already been set up in the late 1960's. Three Kern Swiss draftsman's lining pens and two lining compasses were also invested in at that time. This covers the equipment I use. I went to Art School full-time 1955-58 so this probably helped.

All the coaches are sprayed either with an aerosol (primer) or spraygun (colours) using cellulose paint. Black lining is done in cellulose for speed mostly. Cream/yellow lining on the coaches is also done in cellulose where lining is straight. Where corners are present, as on full panelled coaches, the lining is done with a specially small and fine lining pen. It has been that pens sole task for just about 50 years. Corners are done in Humbrol gloss No.7 enamel with chrome yellow added. Coaches in simple livery such as the LMS 1934 thru' to BR style are lined in tinter yellow cellulose. A steel ruler is used at all times. It has a strip of masking tape attached on one side to prevent the ruler slipping off projections such as door handles.

For years I used clear cellulose as varnish blown on with plenty of air to make a satin finish. More recently I have taken a speedier and more consistent route by using Halfords Satin Lacquer. This is often decanted into the spraygun first so that i have more control than offered by a rattlecan.

I hope this description helps

It does indeed, thank you.

I suspect having learnt your trade whilst I was cutting teeth might be relevant!

I find coaches a complete pita, they are as hard work as a loco, but you need many times more... I’m enjoying your threads, it’s good to see what can be done.

Best
Simon
 

RoryStrat

New Member
Larry am I right that an airgun is not the same as an airbrush. And another question, is one coat sufficient or do you apply more?
 

LarryG

Western Thunderer
Larry am I right that an airgun is not the same as an airbrush. And another question, is one coat sufficient or do you apply more?
An airbrush is not the same as a sray gun. I don't know much about airbrushes except to say they probably have different levels of control depending on cost. Spray guns do not seem expensive these days. My DeVilbis is a miniature of a full size gun and different needles and caps can be fitted., though in practice I use just the one which will cover 4mm and 7mm models.

The first coat is a weak one. It covers, but only just. This helps the second coat keys to it and helps prevent runs. The second coat is the finishing coat so i apply rather more paint. The key, especially on 7mm scale models, is to ensure the model is wet all over to prevent over-spray. I put models on a shelf above a convector heater to dry out. If the cellulose to thinners mix is right and if the paint is applied properly with the correct paint to air ratio, it will dry to a glass-like finish.
 

RoryStrat

New Member
An airbrush is not the same as a sray gun. I don't know much about airbrushes except to say they probably have different levels of control depending on cost. Spray guns do not seem expensive these days. My DeVilbis is a miniature of a full size gun and different needles and caps can be fitted., though in practice I use just the one which will cover 4mm and 7mm models.

The first coat is a weak one. It covers, but only just. This helps the second coat keys to it and helps prevent runs. The second coat is the finishing coat so i apply rather more paint. The key, especially on 7mm scale models, is to ensure the model is wet all over to prevent over-spray. I put models on a shelf above a convector heater to dry out. If the cellulose to thinners mix is right and if the paint is applied properly with the correct paint to air ratio, it will dry to a glass-like finish.
Thanks for that Larry. Sorry to be a pain and ask another question but do you let the first weak cost fully dry or apply the second and final coat wet on wet; would the technique be pretty much the same with enamels through an airbrush. Peter
 

LarryG

Western Thunderer
In closing this look at LMS Period II coaches, I must mention the rather curious D1719 (derived from the D1707), which was a semi-open first. Note the narrower timbers in the matchboard ends....
WEB LMS Coaches D1719.jpg
These coaches had three compartments that seated 12 passenger only, a large central lavatory-cum-powder room, and a three-bay open saloon dining room for 18 passengers. At least one was converted into an engineers inspection saloon by BR....
WEB LMS Coaches D1719B.jpg

Period II styling of steel clad bodies with external wooden window bolections was also applied to non-corridor coaches. This is a suburban brake third to D1735. It differed from Period I stock only in the absence of raised panelling.....
WEB LMS Coaches D1735.jpg
Some of the above D1735's were diverted from Lot 562 to be completed as D1790 push-pull driving trailers. This batch retained the guards lookout duckets. and they also carried the single waist mock full lining.....
WEB LMS Coaches D1790B.jpg

Some D1790's carried a low-waisted form of full lining as shown below. The genuine Period II driving trailers had no lookout duckets...
WEB LMS Coaches D1790.jpg
 

LarryG

Western Thunderer
When William Stanier arrived at the LMS, it wasn't long before internally fitted window frames with sliding ventilators replaced the large picture windows synonymous with the Period II vestibuled stock. The new windows allowed the coaches to be truly flush-sided and the first Stanier coaches took to the rails in 1933 with shallow sliding vents. Roofs too changed from wood & canvass with rainstrips to overlapping sheet metal, but roof vents remained the torpedo type. This is the D1860 corridor composite with shallow sliding vents. The first class windows were wider than in third class...
WEB LMS Coaches D1860.jpg

This is a D1898 of 1934 showing the deeper sliding window vents and all windows are the same width. This was the last flourish of fully lined livery, as the second Lot had simple livery. The D1925 compo that followed in 1935 looked the same but third class compartment were reduced from 6'6" to 6' 3" to make bigger lavatories....
WEB LMS Coaches D1925.jpg
The first Stanier corridor brake thirds to be built were to D1851 with a single guards door as illustrated, but D1852 quickly followed with two pairs of double doors. However, all luggage doors remained at 2' wide at this point.....
WEB LMS Coaches D1851.jpg

The D1905 introduced luggage doors 2' 3" wide. Deeper sliding window vents were introduced and roof vents changed to shell type. These Comet sides had replaced Hornby's plastic sides....

WEB LMS Coaches D1905.jpg

The D1968 introduced in 1937 marked yet another change in the corridor brake third evolution in that the lavatory was placed next to the entrance door and most BTK's from now on would have welded underframes and welded bogies. The bodyside overlapped the upper edge of the solebars, which in turn lead to a deeper cantrail above the windows....
WEB LMS Coaches D1968.jpg
 
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