In and Out Buildings - Thoughts and Research

[Dog Star]

An interesting post about the need to insulate log cabins.... when the sales brochures talk about the warmth of such structures.

Our workshop walls are 15mm pine T&G Shiplap on 75mm x 47mm framing. All of the walls and the roof panels are insulated with 50mm Celotex (at a jaw dropping price) with internal cladding of 15mm T&G. The floor is 19mm T&G with at least 6" between floor and foundation. Last week / this week we have been pleasantly warm with two 1KW oil filled thermostatic radiators which are switched on about 30 minutes before and whilst we are using the workshop.

The two doors have yet to be insulated and need draught excluders around the jams so I am expecting the cost of heating to go down when we have finished the insulation work.

regards, Graham

 

[Osgood]

........
The two doors have yet to be insulated and need draught excluders around the jams so I am expecting the cost of heating to go down when we have finished the insulation work.

The north winds have exposed some major deficiencies with the sealing on our timber windows - just about to source one type from that wriggly worm website I mentioned and another from here - where you may find a wider selection to suit your door:
https://www.sealco-scotland.co.uk/product-category/accessories/weatherseals/window-seals/

 

[Kev T]

Paul
You can't really protect your cars and tools against our wonderful climate without some form of environmental control in the building. So I was wondering what lines are you thinking along to protect against humidity?
Kev

 

[Focalplane]

Kev

When we owned a caravan it was stored each winter with water absorbing crystals in plastic containers. I don’t remember the chemical but the caravan did stay dryer and never got any mould. Silica gel is considered the standard for stopping moisture from damaging items in small spaces, but I don’t think a garage can be called a small space even though it is never large enough. However, I just invested in two of these to put on the dashboards of my Rileys. Most users claim they work well so they are worth a try, if only to keep condensation away from the dashboard area.



These 1kg sacks won’t help in a garage so what other methods are available? As noted in earlier posts the wooden construction option does mitigate some condensation, however rapid temperature changes from warm to cold are the main culprit. So heat applied during cooling periods should keep the moisture trapped in the atmosphere of the shed. Many classic car owners put oil filled radiators in their garages, setting the thermostat to switch on at a lower setting. In France many electric heating systems have a ❄️ thermostat setting which stops a house or flat from freezing, no doubt they exist elsewhere.

But heating keeps the moisture in the atmosphere, so de-humidifiers were invented to suck that moisture out. I had one in my garage in Houston (a very humid place!) and it could take a gallon of water out of the closed space in next to no time. Trouble was it had no easy means of putting that water into a drain and the container had to be emptied by hand. Not much use when away from home. De-humidifiers are not as expensive to run as air conditioners but they still cost money and stop working if not plumbed in.

Which means that air conditioning could come into the equation except the UK’s climate doesn’t really justify the expense.

In summary

As noted in several posts, sealing the outbuilding from drafts is a good start. Next I would suggest a low kilowatt oil filled radiator with thermostat. If this doesn’t combat humidity enough, think about a de-humidifier but get one that offers drainage options. I’ll get back to report on the effectiveness of the silica gel sacks, but these will not de-humidify an entire garage!

postscipt - I wonder if the discussion would have focussed on humidity if I had started it in the summer? Better days are ahead!

 

[paratom]

Having a dehumidifier in the out building would probably be a good idea. The ones on the market today cost as little as 2.5 pence an hour to run.

 

[Focalplane]

Air conditioning units are actually excellent de-humidifiers. From over 45 years of experience in Singapore, Texas and France I can say that the main purpose of a/c or clim is to reduce humidity significantly and drop the temperature slightly, relatively speaking. This makes the climate more comfortable to us humans. The de-humidifier I bought in Texas (long gone now) actually heated the room while removing moisture.

 

[Kev T]

Your previous post makes more sense to me now. I can get a handle on what you're planning to do and your thoughts on ths.

A bit of background, I was a BMS engineer installing and programming the control for, mostly, large buildings. About 40 years ago..ish there was a move to control humidity with humidifiers and dehumidifiers being installed n plant rooms. Then as the cost of energy continued its inexorable rise humidity control was abandoned, humidifiers switched off and dehumidification happening only as a side effect of cooling. I'm now only aware of one building where humidity control is in place and that is a specialist one off oddball.

As you say the issue is temperature fluctuation and condensation. During Winter the RH may be high but the absolute humidity is low. Cold air can't hold much moisture. This is a problem in large office blocks where in Winter the air can be too dry.
In your case holding the temperature above the dew point, in the UK say 10C, will stop all but the worst problems in Winter, and will have the benefit of a fairly dry environment. The issue, as in my second paragraph, is the cost. If you want to achieve a stable cost effective environment then insulation is essential. I would be looking for floor as well as roof insulation, draft exclusion, and don't forget airflow. You need to think about not storing sensitive bits in areas where there will be no airflow. It might even be worth thinking about a ceiling fan set to a timer, and an electric heater is a good idea. Anhydrous crystals might work in localised areas for a specific task, but as you say they won't do a garage.

Insulation is a one off payment that will repay you in energy usage and a more stable environment and in my personal opinion essential. In the case of my cabin I simply had a bad case of believing the hype about how warm it would be.

Just my 2p

Kev

 

[Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen]

A few years ago we had a garage/studio built. The building is around 10 metres wide and 6 metres deep. It is divided into 1/3 studio for my wife and 2/3 garage for a couple of old cars. The building is timber framed, block and beam floor and pitched plain tiled roof. Its well insulated with walls, r and windows and the door to the studio all double glazed. My wife's section has a panel heater to keep it at about 18C so that it is always comfortable to work in. The garage is well sealed against draughts particularly around the doors. My concern was humidity causing corrosion so I bought a Meaco dehumidifier in it.

Meaco (U.K.) Limited

This has been very successful, it keeps humidity at 55% and also provides a little heat so temperature never seems to drop below 5C. The garage also stores outdoor railway models, tools, books and a lathe. No problems with rust and any cardboard and paper stays completely dry.

I wondered for sometime about the garage floor covering and then at the Classic Car Show came across Ecotiles. I decided that they would suit me and had them fitted. Comfortable to stand and kneel on and no problems with the cold that comes through concrete.

Industrial Flooring Manufacturers | Interlocking Tiles | Ecotile Flooring Ltd

Its also alarmed and connected to the household system.

all the best
Tim

 

[Osgood]

My 'room' (a 25ft x 7ft x 6ft insulated semitrailer) has a small air-to-air aircon system and a dehumidifier.
To my embarrassment I admit to spending very little time in there, so I leave the aircon off, but I run the dehumidifier 24/7.
No problems at with temperature fluctuation affecting anything (other than the glue that holds Dapol Terrier works plates on ), and a/c warms it up within 4 minutes or so when I do get to it.

Dehumidifier does a brilliant job - it is a low to mid-range (desiccant wheel type) ECOAIR Model ECO DD322FW, easily plumbed to drain to outside so no tank emptying required. Almost silent.
I will not hesitate to get another soon for a 20ft insulated container I'm turning in to a welding shop (saves the reel of mig wire going rusty!).

The modern curved Amercian hangar at IWM Duxford has no heating - just humidity control, and the temperature fluctuation with all that glazing is quite extreme.

 

[Kev T]

Interesting comment about Duxford environmental controls being dehumidification. The only building I was aware using dehum is also long term aircraft storage, albeit for more modern aircraft.
Kev

 

[Focalplane]

I started to dismantle the rotting greenhouse today. I am trying to save as much glass as I can because recycling window glass appears to be problematic. It’s not like bottle glass apparently! Most of the wooden frame is rotten and will go to the tip.

This chore should reduce the cost of the foundation work considerably. It’s perfect work for the weather, the other gardening jobs are on hold due to frozen soil. Everyone on TV and radio keep saying how cold it is but winters have always been like this, haven’t they?

 

[LarryG]

Everyone on TV and radio keep saying how cold it is but winters have always been like this, haven’t they?

Always. Exaggerated hype and fake news is standard fare in MSM.

 

[Focalplane]

I just read the Accuweather spring forecast. Doesn’t look too good for the UK, Beast from the East until March.

I am now keeping warm by fettling Finney7 coupling and connecting rods. I may have to turn on the soldering iron soon.

 

[Focalplane]

The old greenhouse is down. Taking out all that glass required a lot of concentration. In the end only two pieces cracked, both due to stresses in the framework due to rot in the foundation. Thick safety gloves were an absolute necessity.

Then today we received an interesting proposal to change my planning. It looks as though another landscaping project will be started first.

As a result I am thinking of having KEOPS interlock do the entire project - foundation, delivery and on site erection in around 3 months time. There will be some landscaping for us to do after completion. If they can do the foundation slab sooner, then the Riley Kestrel will have a hard standing under a tarpaulin. I may even be able to start restoration of various fixtures before the garage workshop is finished.

The change in climate in the past two days, from -3ºC to 13ºC in 24 hours will no doubt test the car dehumidifiers pictured in post 24. One is in the brick/concrete garage, the other under a tarpaulin, both sitting on respective transmission tunnels.

 

[Focalplane]

Well, I received the concrete foundation slab quote today and nearly shut down the project!

 

[Giles]

Regarding lighting, I have both LED strip lights and LED panels (4800K, dimmable), and I greatly prefer the panels. I perceive no flickering, whereas the striplight (Good though it is) does....... I'm considering removing the striplight and replacing it for that reason.

I got all mine from EBay, most new, some second hand (allegedly- I think surplus would be more accurate), but all 4800K as the nearest to a (warm) daylight colour to live and work under. LEDs of course being something of a compromise.

 

[simond]

I installed a led strip in our (f)utility room (abandoned hope all ye who enter here) and it has two results:

I can see what I’m cleaning when I have an end-of-the-session Jif & ultrasonic clean-up

I and (perhaps more importantly) MrsD are now painfully aware that redecoration of said space is urgently indicated...

 

[Focalplane]

Over the weekend I started to clear the site. It occurred to me that the current eyesore is an excuse for high estimates. If I can level the site then it will be easier to convince a contractor not to add bells and whistles that Keops don’t recommend for their relatively light structures. I would guess that a concrete block has a density or around 2.5 compared to dense slow growth pine of just less than 1. And concrete blocks are thicker. There are lighter blocks, of course, but the question of damp humid interiors raises its ugly head.

We are having other landscaping work done and I may be able to join the two jobs into one. We’ll see.

The good news is that the plan is evolving in the right direction. This thread, by the way, has been useful in focussing my mind on various details. Just writing it down has helped a lot. Your comments have always been welcomed!

Paul

 

[Osgood]

In case of temptation to save money by using a budget readymix supplier who may be using recycled aggregate, or even to specify recycled aggregate with a view to helping save the planet:

There appears to be little quality control in some cases within the supply chain - for example crushed brick, other non-aggregate debris best suited to the non-recycling domestic bin that would absorb water and then cause frost blow-out.
The sole of a trainer that appeared at (and through) the surface of a garage floor slab locally before it had cured shouldn’t have qualified as aggregate let alone passed a 20mm mesh, and didn’t look great - further investigation revealed other ‘stuff’ ....

Ok for bulk buried pours where strength and appearance not important, but for a quality structural floor slab perhaps best avoided?

I’m not sure that the use of 50mm long fibreglass strands within the mix to increases strength at little extra cost (in theory enabling less volume of concrete at nominal extra volumetric cost) has become widespread - a few people I know use it all the time but some builders never give it a thought. Seems to be something that has to be specified by the client or the architect.

 

[Focalplane]

Points well taken. The bells and whistles I refer to were largely related to clearing the site which I can do much of myself. Retirement allows that to be possible. Once clear the remaining work can be tailor made with good materials knowing that the money will go for quality.

The ground worker I hope to be using is a subcontractor to a family run swimming pool company. He comes highly recommended.