7mm Kits for Freightliner Flats - FFA / FGA
- Thread starter Dog Star
- Start date
, using low welt solder. they are a easy kit to build and there should be no problems.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
If you need detailed images, let me know, there's dozens of them laid over today at work and I need to go over to the rail head for a planned breakdown shortly anyway, always have my camera so no problems banging off a pile of photos for you, may even have a load already from previous photo shoots, but they're at home and I cannot remember all the types I photo'd, glad I did the pocket liners way back then, you don't see them around any more, all mini liners/ low liners these days. Plus its perfect winters sunshine here today 
.
Actually if anyone needs detailed images of any part of modern Freightliner vehicle or boxes let me know, or even anything to do with container shipping in the port industry (rail equipment, cranes, shipping, IMVs, forklift, reachstacker, outsize cargoes etc etc). We've currently 1/4 million boxes stood on the ground at any one time LOL, plenty of choice, very few of my dock photos go on my Flickr site but anyone here is welcome to a 'private' copy if they wish.
Addendum, regarding brakes, I think all of them are now fitted with axel mounted discs, clasp brakes are very yesterdays fashion, presumable they mess up the wheel profile over time.
Kindest
.Actually if anyone needs detailed images of any part of modern Freightliner vehicle or boxes let me know, or even anything to do with container shipping in the port industry (rail equipment, cranes, shipping, IMVs, forklift, reachstacker, outsize cargoes etc etc). We've currently 1/4 million boxes stood on the ground at any one time LOL, plenty of choice, very few of my dock photos go on my Flickr site but anyone here is welcome to a 'private' copy if they wish.
Addendum, regarding brakes, I think all of them are now fitted with axel mounted discs, clasp brakes are very yesterdays fashion, presumable they mess up the wheel profile over time.
Kindest
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Yes please. The current questions relate to the pipe runs for the air brake on FFA and FGA wagons... and the method by which the brake calipers are attached to the bogie frame. A detail shot of the current clamplockswill be useful... as will a phot showing how/where the air pipes are attached to the solid drawbar.
As an idea... which freightliner FFA /FGA had disc brakes to the wheels and which had disc brakes on the axle?
If a wagon started with disc brakes on the wheels... when, if at all, might that form of brake have been converted to axle discs?
thank you, Graham
As an idea... which freightliner FFA /FGA had disc brakes to the wheels and which had disc brakes on the axle?
If a wagon started with disc brakes on the wheels... when, if at all, might that form of brake have been converted to axle discs?
thank you, Graham
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Graham, well I just popped down to the two rail terminals and the cripples area, theres over 200 wagons here at the moment, guess what, not a single FFA/FGA, pretty much everything else in spades but not these, however as mentioned before I'm sure I have these at home, though they may not be exactly the areas you need, I just banged away at anything I thought I might need in the future. I will check when I get home off shift later tonight for you.
Regarding brakes, seems tread brakes are not as old fashioned as I thought, at least 60% are still tread brakes, a quick run over what we have seems to show two types of bogie, fabricated and cast, I've no idea what the official designations are, they're not stamped on them anywhere. All fabricated types appear to have tread brakes on both sides of the wheel if I recall, will double check this afternoon. The cast bogies have both types of brake, older bogies built 1988 or so have tread brakes but only on the inner side of the wheel, none on the outer, in other words the brakes are trying to force the axels apart in the longitudinal plane. Later bogies, 1993 ish had disc brakes on the axel. None of these are on FFA/FGA wagons but I think its the same bogie so it looks date dependant on which type of brake is fitted and being as the bogies come complete with all the brake gear self contained, it is possible I presume to simply swap one type for another.
Clamp locks, we call them twistlocks or fixed cones, there are two types twistlocks are just that, the cone is able to rotate and lock the box to the wagon, the fixed cone are a more different kettle of fish, they are specially shaped, unlike the twistlock which is a pure cone, the fixed cone has a bulbous top, it does not rotate but relys on the bulb to stop the box from coming off. In technical terms the underside of the bulb will catch on the inside of the pocket. The theory is that for a box to fall off a wagon it will have a rotational moment and will slide toward the rotation moment, in doing so the cone will become off center in the pocket and catch the box, doesnt always work, read the RAIB reports on Grayrigg and Cheddington where empty boxes have been blown off trains in high cross wind conditions!, I can provide a link if your really interested, actually RAIB reports are very good and often detail specific parts of railway vehicle running gear, the one on the Ely stone train derailment whent into quite good detail about that type of axel box and springing, lots of detail shots and sketches, good for modeling. Anyway, back on track, the fixed cone is designed to allow a box to be lifted in the vertical plane but any side movement or rolling moment will cause it to grab the box pocket with the underside of the bulb, I think a photo would explain it easier LOL, will supply images of both types tonight either way.
Looking on the web I see that the FFA/FGA runs with twistlocks and not fixed cones so can provide images of those easy enough, the bogies are cast but have the spring plank protruding through their midships and rotating bearing cups on the outside, I know I've seen these so pretty sure I have photos at home, if not I can get some at work when they do get here...if they're still in service....or at locations on the line where I know they stop for signal clearance (Clickett Hill etc).
Addendum, just thought, the above mentioned RAIB reports and the recent Marks Tey derailment might detail FFA/FGA wagons, don't have the link at work but will try and Sherlock it for you in a moment.
HTH...for the current moment.
Regarding brakes, seems tread brakes are not as old fashioned as I thought, at least 60% are still tread brakes, a quick run over what we have seems to show two types of bogie, fabricated and cast, I've no idea what the official designations are, they're not stamped on them anywhere. All fabricated types appear to have tread brakes on both sides of the wheel if I recall, will double check this afternoon. The cast bogies have both types of brake, older bogies built 1988 or so have tread brakes but only on the inner side of the wheel, none on the outer, in other words the brakes are trying to force the axels apart in the longitudinal plane. Later bogies, 1993 ish had disc brakes on the axel. None of these are on FFA/FGA wagons but I think its the same bogie so it looks date dependant on which type of brake is fitted and being as the bogies come complete with all the brake gear self contained, it is possible I presume to simply swap one type for another.
Clamp locks, we call them twistlocks or fixed cones
, there are two types twistlocks are just that, the cone is able to rotate and lock the box to the wagon, the fixed cone are a more different kettle of fish, they are specially shaped, unlike the twistlock which is a pure cone, the fixed cone has a bulbous top, it does not rotate but relys on the bulb to stop the box from coming off. In technical terms the underside of the bulb will catch on the inside of the pocket. The theory is that for a box to fall off a wagon it will have a rotational moment and will slide toward the rotation moment, in doing so the cone will become off center in the pocket and catch the box, doesnt always work, read the RAIB reports on Grayrigg and Cheddington where empty boxes have been blown off trains in high cross wind conditions!, I can provide a link if your really interested, actually RAIB reports are very good and often detail specific parts of railway vehicle running gear, the one on the Ely stone train derailment whent into quite good detail about that type of axel box and springing, lots of detail shots and sketches, good for modeling. Anyway, back on track, the fixed cone is designed to allow a box to be lifted in the vertical plane but any side movement or rolling moment will cause it to grab the box pocket with the underside of the bulb, I think a photo would explain it easier LOL, will supply images of both types tonight either way.Looking on the web I see that the FFA/FGA runs with twistlocks and not fixed cones so can provide images of those easy enough, the bogies are cast but have the spring plank protruding through their midships and rotating bearing cups on the outside, I know I've seen these so pretty sure I have photos at home, if not I can get some at work when they do get here...if they're still in service....or at locations on the line where I know they stop for signal clearance (Clickett Hill etc).
Addendum, just thought, the above mentioned RAIB reports and the recent Marks Tey derailment might detail FFA/FGA wagons, don't have the link at work but will try and Sherlock it for you in a moment.
HTH...for the current moment.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Graham, these links might help you
FFA/FGA info
http://www.ltsv.com/downloads/w_profile_018.pdf
RAIB Marks Tey
https://aib-cms.co.uk/sites/raib/cms_resources.cfm?file=/100114_R012010_MarksTey.pdf
RAIB Cheddington/Hardendale...sorry not Grayrigg as previously written
https://aib-cms.co.uk/sites/raib/cms_resources.cfm?file=/0905027_R122009_Containers.pdf
The last has excellent detailed information on the fixed cone type of fixing and detailed study into cause and effect of this type of fixing. Of course these are not fitted to FFA/FGA, but interesting reading none the less. Neither of the RAIB reports feature FFA/FGA wagons unfortunately.
Kindest
FFA/FGA info
http://www.ltsv.com/downloads/w_profile_018.pdf
RAIB Marks Tey
https://aib-cms.co.uk/sites/raib/cms_resources.cfm?file=/100114_R012010_MarksTey.pdf
RAIB Cheddington/Hardendale...sorry not Grayrigg as previously written
https://aib-cms.co.uk/sites/raib/cms_resources.cfm?file=/0905027_R122009_Containers.pdf
The last has excellent detailed information on the fixed cone type of fixing and detailed study into cause and effect of this type of fixing. Of course these are not fitted to FFA/FGA, but interesting reading none the less. Neither of the RAIB reports feature FFA/FGA wagons unfortunately.
Kindest
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Graham, well, I've just checked my stock of Freightliner detail images (730) and sadly not one of FFA/FGA, terribly embarrassing really, especially being a rail enthusiast working at the country's biggest port and probably largest Freightliner terminals!. I will keep an eye out and if they turn up and the situation presents (can't crawl all over them when the terminal is working) its self I will photo them in detail.
However, as some sort of consolation prize I do have tabulated lists of most if not all batches and production runs, also details which bogies fitted (though as yet not worked out which type of bogie has which type of brake, shouldn't be too hard though with a little cross reference with wagon numbers and pictures on the web) as well as blurb about their design and construction, from the OPC 'Life & Times series' on Freightliner, very good book if your into that sort of thing, I'll scan the relevant pages and let you have a copy.
As a side note, whilst on terminal today I spotted this, it's a genuine Freightliner branded and built 30' box built by York, #48N94, according to the aforementioned book....which details all the boxes and types along with their numbers (your welcome to this info too) this box is a 30' type M, part of a batch of 200 built in York in 1973, that has to be the oldest box I've ever seen at 39 years old. Quite pleased to have bagged this rarity, I suspect its going for scrap, cannot believe it's still in regular revenue service, though it does have a security seal, so there is something inside worthy of value.
Kindest
However, as some sort of consolation prize I do have tabulated lists of most if not all batches and production runs, also details which bogies fitted (though as yet not worked out which type of bogie has which type of brake, shouldn't be too hard though with a little cross reference with wagon numbers and pictures on the web) as well as blurb about their design and construction, from the OPC 'Life & Times series' on Freightliner, very good book if your into that sort of thing, I'll scan the relevant pages and let you have a copy.
As a side note, whilst on terminal today I spotted this, it's a genuine Freightliner branded and built 30' box built by York, #48N94, according to the aforementioned book....which details all the boxes and types along with their numbers (your welcome to this info too) this box is a 30' type M, part of a batch of 200 built in York in 1973, that has to be the oldest box I've ever seen at 39 years old. Quite pleased to have bagged this rarity, I suspect its going for scrap, cannot believe it's still in regular revenue service, though it does have a security seal, so there is something inside worthy of value.
Kindest
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Thank you for offering to photograph any FFA / FGA which gets lost down the branch.
I shall be pleased to see the pages which you have mentioned. Much to my surprise... the book that you mention is on the bookshelf here - pity that there are no plans and no detail photos of the flats. Think I shall photograph the bogie side frame castings in the kit and then maybe one nof us can work out what brake arrangement is possible.
Maybe you ought to notify the NRM about the container, then someone can invoke the relevant Act and get the box accessioned into the national collection.
thank you, Graham
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Graham, if you have the book then pages 90-97 detail the early Freightliner wagons, specifically FFA/FFG, I have scanned them so if you want them in a PDF format to print out and get all grubby then just shout. I did wonder about its rarity but its quite tatty and rotten in places, looking at the green mold growing on it, it's been stood somewhere for quite a while, I'm not sure where its going, generally boxes stood down on a Sunday are there ready to put on a train first thing Mon morning, ie we have all ready filled up what we can (Locos stop running around 17:00 Sat and begin 06:00 Mon), or its been put on the ground waiting for an IMV (Internal Movement Vehicle....Tugs) to move it into the park.
Two things concern me, if its going on a train, that means it came from somewhere very local to Felixstowe, second, if its going out on a vessel, I doubt it'll survive the sailing and will almost certainly never come back to the UK.
The other problem is tracking it, it has no ISO number and being as everything these days is computer based and needs the ISO number to even begin a journey or be tracked, so I have no idea how the system is going to cope with a 39 year old box number, it'll probably have a spasm and shut down, which will cascade into Europe and then the whole world, chaos!. Ok I exaggerate a little but the box number will not fit into the current Alphanumeric pigeon box used today, theres just no way to enter the box number....'computer says no!'.
Regarding the photos, I'm actually quite cross, because I've seen them recently, those bogies are unique with the external springing on the spring plank and I've not taken one shot, I've a nasty gut feeling they're all but gone from the system, will put some feelers out, or there limited to one or two set paths, probably Southampton based.
Kindest
Two things concern me, if its going on a train, that means it came from somewhere very local to Felixstowe, second, if its going out on a vessel, I doubt it'll survive the sailing and will almost certainly never come back to the UK.
The other problem is tracking it, it has no ISO number and being as everything these days is computer based and needs the ISO number to even begin a journey or be tracked, so I have no idea how the system is going to cope with a 39 year old box number
, it'll probably have a spasm and shut down, which will cascade into Europe and then the whole world, chaos!. Ok I exaggerate a little but the box number will not fit into the current Alphanumeric pigeon box used today, theres just no way to enter the box number....'computer says no!'.Regarding the photos, I'm actually quite cross, because I've seen them recently, those bogies are unique with the external springing on the spring plank and I've not taken one shot, I've a nasty gut feeling they're all but gone from the system, will put some feelers out, or there limited to one or two set paths, probably Southampton based.
Kindest
BrushType4
Western Thunderer
I'd love to know where this box has been, looks like someone has been using it for storage?
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Well it's still here tonight! , I suspect 'SPARCs' (rail terminal container computer system) is having a fit over the non standard ident 
LOL. Truth be told, given it's obvious poor condition I think every one is afraid to pick it up anymore. I'll pop over later tonight and see if any of the guys on the ground can shed any more light on it.
Kindest
, I suspect 'SPARCs' (rail terminal container computer system) is having a fit over the non standard ident LOL. Truth be told, given it's obvious poor condition I think every one is afraid to pick it up anymore. I'll pop over later tonight and see if any of the guys on the ground can shed any more light on it.Kindest
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Sorry for continuing to hijack Grahams thread , more news on the box, its not going anywhere, apparently it belongs to local on site contractors and has been stood at the end of the terminal for years, I've been here 13 years and never seen it!, but now its in the way for the new rail terminal project so they moved it out of the way, why they left it here I do not know, rather than on a trailer some where out of the way, I'll try and find out who the contractors are, not sure if anyone would want to save it (NRM etc) but as you say, it is a piece of railway heritage and part of a system that's now global and has a huge impact on modern life, so it has potential historic qualities.
Kindest
, more news on the box, its not going anywhere, apparently it belongs to local on site contractors and has been stood at the end of the terminal for years, I've been here 13 years and never seen it!, but now its in the way for the new rail terminal project so they moved it out of the way, why they left it here I do not know, rather than on a trailer some where out of the way, I'll try and find out who the contractors are, not sure if anyone would want to save it (NRM etc) but as you say, it is a piece of railway heritage and part of a system that's now global and has a huge impact on modern life, so it has potential historic qualities.Kindest
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Tha the box is no longer the property of a railway company is a problem because, I think, the relevant Act gave the NRM accessionary powers in relation to the disposal of equipment by railway companies. Humm, maybe this one has slipped the net already... or maybe still belongs to a railway company and the local contractor is a squatter?
FFA/ FGA photos anyone?
FFA/ FGA photos anyone?
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Squatters!, I hope not, they do most of the civil work on the port LOL, but I know what you mean, they may just have claimed it as it was lying around, of the 3-4000 we have spare, you'd think they'd have picked a better one.
FFA/FGA, working on it, none in last night, wouldn't have been ideal for photography but could have pulled one or two shots of if they were here.
Kindest
40126
Western Thunderer
40126
Western Thunderer
Well it's still here tonight!
Kindest
Hi Mick
Which terminal do you work at ?. My mrs works for TAL, who import & export containers, & sells & hire them out.
Steve
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Hi Mick
Which terminal do you work at ?. My mrs works for TAL, who import & export containers, & sells & hire them out.
Steve
Steve, I work on all of them, engineering you see, access all areas LOL. Anything that moves a container and breaks down usually comes my way
.Kindest
40126
Western Thunderer
Steve, I work on all of them, engineering you see, access all areas LOL. Anything that moves a container and breaks down usually comes my way
Kindest
Oh i see. Where was that old Freightliner box ?.
Steve