LNWR Super D - Info needed

[Boyblunder]

The Scale 7 Super D Eastside Pilot spotted on eBay is now resident in Colchester, slightly off its normal route. Have to admit I bid partly to push the price up for Don's family and partly hoping to win it so that I could fit a large ultrasonic smoke unit in its massive boiler to compare with the Steve Baldock's 8F oil vaping system. With a few seconds to go to end of the auction I was the top bidder at a stupidly low price and feeling guilty, then someone pushed it up to within £5 of my max bid so if that was you, sorry.


It is a nice looking model and I don't regret buying it, however testing on my 7ft radius test track showed it ran beautifully in one direction and derailed immediately when turned round. On closer inspection I found the chassis was curved, an interesting issue not often found on scale 7 models? The chassis outside frame width is 28.2mm at each end but less and slightly tapered downwards at the central spacer. I suspect Don started building this when his eyesight was beginning to fail which is probably why he didn't finish it. The curve looks like it was partly induced by the brake pivot rods, when I removed them it straightened out.



I could just replace the central spacer and put it back together, however the chassis seems too wobbly with only one spacer and the large space between the boiler and frames really begged for some representation of inside motion. Now to my problem, Colin Eastside Pilot leant me 2 excellent books on LNWR 8 coupled locos with GA drawings, but I can't see the motion bracket or any other cross members apart from the central one on the drawings. It has Joy valve gear with cranks on the 2nd axle, it's what is in between is not clear to me.

Did find a few photos on the web of the preserved loco 49395 undergoing rebuild but sods law none showing what is in between the frames towards the front. Does anyone have any clear photos or drawings that I can make an approximate stab at the motion and any other cross members or stays please?
Robin

 

[Rob R]

I can't help with any information but well done for giving it a good home.

Rob

 

[Osgood]

This may be of use.
The London & North Western Railway Eight-Coupled Goods Engines
By Edward Talbot 2002
Pages 74-77
I bet it’s one of the two that Col lent you!

 

[Mike W]

I assume the central spacer is the one between 2nd and 3rd axles. These were originally boiler stays, extending upwards to the boiler. They were cut off flush with the top of the frames by the LMS. Is it the cast motionplate you want details of? The plate which holds the rear of the slidebars? And are you also looking for details of the slidebars and the weighshaft, or do you have them? On the 0-8-0 the weightshaft is at the top of the frames and a lot more visible than the motionplate.

Mike

 

[Boyblunder]

Answer 1: Yes, spot on that is one the books Colin leant to me. Unfortunately I'm too thick to interpret it.
Answer 2: It is the cast motion plate and all the bits associated with the valve motion I was looking for. Colin offered to have another look at the drawings and in the process I realised some photos in that book show the missing motion plate with slide bars sticking out of it which I could not see on the diagram.

I'm getting there slowly with the help of this Youtube video

If anyone has any photos of the motion with the boiler removed or clearer G1 / G2 valve motion drawings that would be ideal.

Thanks very much for your help.
Robin

 

[Lancastrian]

Robin,
Sorry, I don't have any drawings pertaining to the G1/G2 class(es), but I have this list, from the Crewe Works Drawings list at the NRM. These would help you, but with the NRM currently closed, I don't know what the situation is for getting copies from them.

62 C 19798 Details of valve motion 7 Apr 1915 4'3" eight coupled coal engine (superheated) - class G1
62 C 19799 Arrangement and details of reversing gear 6 Apr 1914 7 Jan 1943 4'3" eight coupled coal engine (superheated) - class G1 Also used for Class G, G2 and F locomotives
63 C 19800 Details of reversing shaft brackets 7 Apr 1915 23 Nov 1923 4'3" eight coupled coal engine (superheated) - class G1 With indirect valve motion only
63 C 19801 Details of motion plate 24 Apr 1915 4'3" eight coupled coal engine (superheated) - class G1
63 C 19822 Arrangement of valve motion 23 Jun 1915 4'3" eight coupled coal engines (superheated) - class G1

75 C 20980 Details of valve motion for engines without rocking shafts 18 Oct 1920 4'3" 8 coupled coal engine (superheated) Class G1

110 C 37064 Frame insert 6 Jan 1949 4'3" 8 coupled coal engine (superheated) G2 class
110 C 37065 Frame insert 6 Jan 1949 4'3" 8 coupled coal engine (superheated) G1 class

Although the G1 and G2 are basically the same, some had direct drive valve motion and others indirect drive, which I believe is dependent on which Lot the loco was from.

Ian

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Robin,
Emails sent, I managed to interpret the drg's.

Col.

 

[Mike W]

If it helps, due to Crewe's standardisation, I think all 0-8-0s were exactly the same (expect for the direct or indirect motion mentioned) and apart from the length of a couple of rods, all Joy valvear engines will be very similar, from Cauliflowers, Jubilees, Precursors and Experiments, to Georges, Princes and Precursor Tanks.

Mike

 

[Mike W]

Here are the valvegear parts for a Jubilee 4-4-0 laid out at Crewe. The basics are the same for the 0-8-0. I've split the photo into two as the 20in x 15in print won't fit on my scanner!

 

[Boyblunder]

Thanks very much everyone. I think I've got there now with your help. Colin has plotted the motion plate from the drawings (I still can't see it, it's like one of those psychological puzzles and I've failed). And Colin has pointed out Laurie Griffin does a representation of LNWR Joy valve gear as a kit so I've ordered one of those. The photos of the components are really helpful thanks. As I now have the rough idea I won't try ordering any drawings from the NRM, their website definitely says they are closed although it does seem odd that they can't do drawings by mail order.

I'll update on progress when I've done something practical, I could be some time.

 

[Lancastrian]

As I now have the rough idea I won't try ordering any drawings from the NRM, their website definitely says they are closed although it does seem odd that they can't do drawings by mail order.

I believe that archivist staff who work in the Search Engine are not working at present. Scans of drawings are carried out at York University, as far as I'm aware, as many of them have to be dealt with sympathetically, and as such, that is not possible if there are no staff on site. Digital copies are available too, but they would still need to be scanned. Although some drawings are available from microfilm, I would have thought it prudent of the NRM to hold digital files of works scanned for others interested in the same. As yet, I have not seen a database of drawings available from a digital file.
I have been trying to find the files I have of the connecting rods for the G1/G2, but can't trace them at the moment.

Ian

 

[Boyblunder]

Ian, thanks very much for that advice. I can understand that scanning drawings of 100 year old locos for modelmakers probably isn't vitally important to the Nation, it is more important that the people stay well so they do their jobs later. Although it would be helpful to have some clearer information for my own interest I now have enough to complete the model to my very average standard. I have ordered Laurie Griffin's LNWR Joy motion kit and Colin is cutting out the motion bracket plus a more accurate centre spacer on his profile mill so when I get those bits I just need to make some semblance of cylinder/valve block end then put it together in approximately the right positions.
Robin

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Robin,
I'll have the motion plate etc. ready soon.
This item fits between the frames as a pivot for the valve gear, I'm not sure what dimension Laurie has made this but you may have to pack it out at the ends.



Col.

 

[Boyblunder]

Colin, yes spotted that on his video

. Think I can hack a bit of metal to fill the gap, whether I can make it all go round is another matter!
Robin