7mm Lochmaben, a new layout.

John Duffy

Western Thunderer
The problem that I can see is if the goods train was going on to Lakeside after going past signal 15 there is no signal to allow it to proceed so it would have to be with the token and a green flag from the box.

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A freight coming from the ironworks or the sidings would need to use the signals to get to the upper platform (the one without the signal box) and from there use signal 4 to proceed to lakeside. The layout is not signalled to allow a departure from the lower platform directly to Lakeside.

I am assuming (in agreement) that Simon is correct in his comment above and that 17 and 18 are indicated for the "mainline" from Lakeside.

There is no signalling provided to allow for a run-round of a locomotive if it were on the front of the train arriving from the iron works. In this case, I wonder if the movement in question was done by reversing a freight from left to right through 15 and 16, to beyond 5, then forward through point 8 to the upper platform and signal 4.

A run-round could of course be hand signalled but given the age of the diagram I would assume that if this manoeuvre was to be a regular feature the railway company would have been forced to provide signalling to allow it, especially given its on a passenger route.

I am now looking forward to someone with much more knowledge telling us how it was actually done.

John
 

Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
I fear Ozzy may have unintentionally missled us, this is a crossing loop on a single line with a headhunt to access some sidings, no more or less than that. The origins of the drawing aren't obvious, it certainly isn't LMS it could be Furness railway but it has some influences I would ascribe to the LNER, most likely a much more local origin. As to the questions signal 5 purely indicates that a train can proceed into the "wrong" platform, one has to remember that a lot more was done by word of mouth than would be acceptable today so the limit of that movement is not identified. John has correctly identified 11 points as the exit from the sidings and therefore not needing an FPL.

Simon
A limit of shunt is a fixed stop signal, which by definition can't exist on a single line.

I couldn't find a diagram of Haverthwaite in the SRS archives, it is quite possible that a diagram exists of Lochmaben in the SRPS Alexander collection, where for info most Scottish signalling info resides.

A further thought re the diagram, the lettering of Haverthwaite looks somewhat crude and uneven, certainly by railway drawing office standards, I wonder if it's possibly a modern effort to look old?
Regards
Martin
 

simond

Western Thunderer
Martin

thanks, I guess I was considering a Limit of Shunt as a conditional fixed stop, as in allowing shunting to the sign, but requiring authority (by lamp or flag or overriding moveable signal) to proceed beyond.

I shall speak to my mentors!

cheers
Simon
 

OzzyO

Western Thunderer
Thanks for all of the reply's, I am in agreement with Martin that the shunt signal 5 would be to allow wrong line running through the lower platform.

Point 11 is used as the trap point for the yard and as you can see controlled by the signal box.

I can't remember if there was a passing loop on a pair of siding that come off the point between 17 and the tunnel.

I don't think that the drawing is a modern effort to look old as I've had it for about 50 years and I received it from the S & T manager at Barrow when they were getting ready to demolish the buildings. Although it doesn't show well in the photo the lint paper has a sky blue colour to it. It could have been an apprentice piece and passed to the S & T department as a reference copy?

I seem to remember a shunt limit sign just before the tunnel on the Lakeside line when I first started going up there when I was about 12-13. It was a white back ground with red letters saying shunt limit in two lines.
 
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Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
Ozzy

Thanks for the confirmation of the drawings origin, S&T at Barrow sounds about right. I can't and won't dispute people's memories without evidence but as I pointed out a shunt limit on a single line can't work. They are and always have been an absolute stop signal. That of course doesn't prevent local initiatives solving a local problem some distance from senior management, until recent times that was how the railway was run.
Martin
 

OzzyO

Western Thunderer
Martin,
would it be possible to give me a link to the collection that you mention below?

"I couldn't find a diagram of Haverthwaite in the SRS archives, it is quite possible that a diagram exists of Lochmaben in the SRPS Alexander collection, where for info most Scottish signalling info resides".

Thanks in advance,

OzzyO.
 

Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
Ozzy
I refer to the Scottish Railway Preservation Society who were given the late Forbes Alexander's collection of Scottish signalling material. It isn't a publicly accessible collection but if any info on Lochmaben exists then it's the most likely repository. I would suggest that an initial written enquiry to the Museum Director and see where that takes you. Unfortunately I currently can't drive or I would take a look myself.
Regards
Martin
 
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OzzyO

Western Thunderer
Ozzy
I refer to the Scottish Railway Preservation Society who were given the late Forbes Alexander's collection of Scottish signalling material. It isn't a publicly accessible collection but if any info on Lochmaben exists then it's the most likely repository. I would suggest that an initial written enquiry to the Museum Director and see where that takes you. Unfortunately I currently can't drive or I would take a look myself.
Regards
Martin

Thanks for that Martin.

OzzyO.
 

OzzyO

Western Thunderer
Hello all,

As an up date I was going to make the point vees like this and cut and shunt chairs to make something like.
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But when I was going through the box of chairs I found these crossing nose chair casting that Ian had bought at Telford about 3 or 4 years ago so I had a look to see what they were like, ended up getting three more of them. I'll still have to chop some chairs about but that's how point making goes.
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The cross over and the point sleepers in the yard, just a few sleeper to lay on the L/H siding to get to the BBJ.
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From the same view point with the third base board in place, to see what the track would look like I made a yard length up so I could show the lads, its not going to waste and is in place in the yard.
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From the other end, this is going to be the joint with the fiddle yard. The two yard lines will both stop short but the inner one will be shorter than the outer one.
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Must have forgot to take any photos of the yard with all its sleepers down.
So back onto the main line (outside) and head shunt. One full base board for the head shunt and about half a board for the main line. The head shunt is at its full length on the board nearest us, just the buffer stops to add, I don't want to fit these until we have got the end boards made. These are used when we pack the layout up for shows and storage.
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When we dropped one of the base boards (BBs from now on) we had a look at how we are going the fix the rails down at the BBJs brass screws at or near to the BBJs, if we cannot cover them with a chair we may look at cutting the sides of the screw heads down to the width of the rail.
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The fiddle yard joint to the main line going in place, the main line will get some of its chairs in place before the rails are split. The tracks that you can see behind the soldering iron are just for more stock storage.
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Getting some of the first fixes in place on the fiddle yard point work using the plan lines to set the vees, one of the problems with the fiddle yard point work is we have a lot of different vee angles that we have no jigs for so some of them will have to be built on site. At the bottom of this photo you can see how we are dealing with BBJs in the fiddle yard two copper clad strips laid just inboard of the BBJ. when the trackwork is finished on the BB the Templot plan will be removed and the end sleepers Epoxied and pined down.
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This photo is to just show how much track we are aiming for in the fiddle yard after the point work.
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More to follow ( if we are still allowed to meet up).

OzzyO.
 

OzzyO

Western Thunderer
Hello all,

last night (Mon) had a bit of a mile stone in the progress of Lochmaben, but more on that latter.

Rick is progressing well with the fiddle yard track and copper clads.
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When you look at this photo I think that he is doing it right in laying the stock rails and working in the point vees from them. The curved double slip looks like it will be fun!!
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I'm not that sure what he's up to here apart from checking out some point vees.
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No Templot on this bit of the yard so it's going to be fun getting the track centres in the correct place, but the boy will be able to manage it I'm sure.
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This was my starting point at the beginning of the night, not a lot of sleepers to get down.
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At the end of the night I had all of the sleeper glued down on the front of the layout (that was the mile stone), you can also see a yard of rail with most of its chairs threaded on it. I'm now waiting for some parts from C & L so I can start on track laying.
What's Rick doing around my side get away go and play with your fiddle yard.
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Some of us from the club had a run out to Wakefield to go and see Heaton Lodge junction the layout but we also had a run over the real one as well. If any one of you gets the chance to get to see it GO. The scenery is very good and to a constant standard along the whole of the layout. The owner of the layout had had some problems with some of the trains. but I think that this photo may show the size when you need these.
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Keep safe and if I don't post before have a good Christmas,

OzzyO.
 

OzzyO

Western Thunderer
Hello all,

all of the best for the new year (it's a bit [lot] late ),

A bit of an update on Lochmaben for you, this should be the last on laying sleepers (who said thanks for that at the back of the class?).
The last or first scenic board going onto the fiddle yard (station end), the track that is laid was a test piece to see how it would all look, but it looks like that I'm going to have a bit of work to do to get the track to flow on to the yard track.
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The first of the Templot plans for the station fiddle yard in place. With most if not all of it's copper clad sleepers in place. Not sure about the fellow he just got beamed down from somewhere, it happens in our club!BB 66.JPG

The next board with the Templot plans in place (thanks for them Martin). A view from both ends.
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We have now hit some important points on the layout these are the last of the copper clads to go down, and in one of the next photos a big one.
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All of the copper clads in place in the fiddle yard, this is one of the milestones of the layout, these were the last of the main sleepers to go down.
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Rick, hit the first of the big mileposts' with these, the start of two points. He has a lot of them to do!
PS. he didn't want me to take a photo of them.
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Rick, got us some nice chairs printed from Shapeways for some of the point chairs for the front of the layout, these are are the before and after photos.
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ATB

OzzyO.
 

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OzzyO

Western Thunderer
Hello all,

now a question for all you thunders, Rick has come up with an idea to put this camping coach on the layout of Lochmaben (in 1984?).
Can anyone identify it? Looking at the doors at the left-hand end it looks like it could have been a brake something. If it can be identified is a kit available for it?

Photographer unknown.

Camping coach Lochmaben - Copy.jpg

PS looking at the roof profile could it be ex L.N.W.R.?
 
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Marc Dobson

Western Thunderer
I would have thought the 80's would be very late for a camping coach. Having said that the ones in Ravenglass were bought by the R&ER and were in use in the 90's I haven't been up to Ravenglass for some time so they might still be there.
As for the coach in the photo it could even be any ex lms pre grouping railway company. With the exception of the midland.
Marc
 

OzzyO

Western Thunderer
Hello Marc,

thanks for that. In our world the coach has been bought by a family that had a very good holiday in the camping coach and when B.R. were going to scrap it they bought it and the rights to keep it on that bit of track and then it became their second home. So that's how it ends up in our world.

ATB

OzzyO.
 
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