7mm Michaels odd new kit, a Prussian T18

Discussion in 'Area 51' started by michl080, 6 March 2021.

  1. michl080

    michl080 Western Thunderer


    this will be a strange beast, I bet nobody guesses what this is going to be.


    I found it some time ago in the bay and I am quite sure it will be the last copy of this kit from the late 1990s.

    I am planning to post build progress, but knowing myself, this won't be too frequent.

    have a nice Sunday,

  2. simond

    simond Western Thunderer

    Ok, I’ll have a go.

    It’s a 4-6-4 steam loco. Almost certainly a tank loco.
    Heavy line of rivets along the top of the frames. Lots of cut-outs in the frames
    Square drop front, with curved frame cutaway.
    “Box girder” chassis, probably not prototype, only the model.
    Unusual “suspension” arrangements for centre & leading axles. Rigid third axle, with space for gearbox.

    doesn’t look like the chassis for the Hush Hush, so I guess it’s not British standard gauge mainline.

    could be US, but I’d expect bar frames.

    how about half an African Garratt?

    of something German?

  3. eastsidepilot

    eastsidepilot Western Thunderer

    DRG 05 ?

  4. michl080

    michl080 Western Thunderer

    You were close, but it is neither US, African nor a DRG 05. The kit will build a Prussian T18, later Class 78 which was one of the most successful and long-living engines ever built in Germany. The first machines were built in 1912 before the Reichsbahn was formed and the last ones were scrapped in 1975. They were among the last active steam engines in Germany and outlived most "Einheitslokomotiven" from the 1930s. Twenty of these machines were sold in 1920 from Vulcan-works in Stettin to the kwStE, the "königlich württembergische Staatseisenbahn" in the independent state of Württemberg. At their delivery, the kwSte ceased to exist, they were labelled as Reichsbahn-engines. My kit will be built as one of these 20 machines 78 164, which was the last survivors of their kwStE class.
    All remaining engines were concentrated in Rottweil and Aalen where they were attracting a lot of steam engine fans. Luckily, some picurtes of 78 164 exist, so I will build it in its 1969 condition.
    The Kit has been manufactured in 1996 by Reinhart Uhde, one of the German pioneers in 7mm brass kits. The description is a very poor quality photocopy, so I contacted Mr. Uhde by e-mail and got a PDF description back from him within 6 hours!! The kit is obviously inspired by British kits and actually uses Slaters wheels. If you have ever wondered why Slaters has some continental wheel sets, here is the reason. :) The kit is quite basic, I hope to find a supplier for brass castings for Prussian engines.

    The frame is cut from the fret, but before I will start, I will carefully study the parts and how they play together. There might be some bad surprises hidden.

  5. Yorkshire Dave

    Yorkshire Dave Western Thunderer


    The BR 78 is my favourite DB locomotive :). It will be good to see this completed.

    At least you have a choice of the Lenz DB Umbauwagen AB3yge, B3yge, BPw3yge, AB4yge, B4yge and BP4yge to go with it.

    However, Silberling (n-wagen) would be very nice ;).

    allegheny1600 likes this.
  6. allegheny1600

    allegheny1600 Western Thunderer

    Wow, what a find!
    Another fan of the T18/BR78 here, I’ll enjoy seeing how this develops.
  7. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Another one here, I've been hoovering up images off the web for several years and got the drawings as well, one of several models to do etches for in my DB to do pile.
    cmax likes this.
  8. Richard Spoors

    Richard Spoors Western Thunderer

    Michael, two possible suppliers are Bauteile - moba-shop24 and DCC For You - Fahrzeug-Bauteile
    Oliver Suhl who runs the dcc4u company is, like Reinhart, very helpful.
    I have built two of Reinhart's smaller kits. They make up into quite nice models. The company in Crottendorf has cast a large variety of parts for German clients building smaller Prussian prototypes than the T18, (P4 and G5 I think from memory) which have been written up in the Arge Spur Null magazine.
    I look forward to seeing how you get on.
  9. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    Is this the one?
  10. Mike W

    Mike W Western Thunderer

    Excuse my ignorance of European drawings, but why is there a height dimension to half way up the chimney?

    lankytank likes this.
  11. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    I’m no expert but it looks like the top of the chimney is removable. Presumably they steam better with the extra height but if the loading gauge is lower the chimney top would be removed.
  12. simond

    simond Western Thunderer

    memories of a Eurostar pantograph coming off worst in a debate with Sandling tunnel...
    Last edited: 9 March 2021
  13. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    I've had a look through all my photos, some 500+, and none show a truncated chimney. Most are from Epoch III and IV but even earlier ones have the extension.

    It is certainly an extension as detailed images clearly show the fixings. Some of the extensions, most, have a lip at the top but earlier they appear to be more stove pipe with a thin bead around the top. At least one DDR engine had a Giesel ejector fitted.

    Crop from a photo off the web.

    Last edited: 9 March 2021
  14. michl080

    michl080 Western Thunderer

    thanks for all the positive feedback!

    Richard, thanks for the links, they are very valuable and both companies have a lot of the parts required, I am still looking for backhead fittings and a few more parts.

    And now for the strange height dimension.
    I thought that is an easy one, the Prussian railway must have had some smaller loading gauges that require a 4,26m limit. Well, I couldnt find any reference to such a thing. In fact, the Prussians defined their national loading gauge at 4,80m height. However, the continental G0 profile had 4,28m, so the Prussians had obviously in mind to operate their locomotives outside their own borders. :eek:
    Another reason for the removable extension may have been the designer of the T18, Mr. Robert Garbe. He had very special ideas about the design of his locos and one typical feature was the so called "Angströhre". His chimneys were notoriously too narrow and to short so that all his locos had insuffucient draught. He was retired in 1912 and his successor Richard Wagner modified many of Garbes worst design flaws, perhaps also the chimney of the T18.

    Mickoo, I found only one picture of a T18 with short chimney, the machine has also lost its pump and all number plates.


    allegheny1600, P A D and Mike Garwood like this.
  15. Scanlon

    Scanlon Western Thunderer

    Here are two photos showing the Class 78 with shortened chimneys, both pictures come from Klaus Holzborn’s book Baureihe 78 Portrait einer Dampflokreihe.
    78 007 is seen at Wesel
    78 085 is shown ex works at Trier and at the time of this photo (August 1964) it was allocated to Karlsruhr This shed had a large allocation of 78’s the vast majority of which had standard tall chimneys.

    78 097 is also known to have run with a shortened chimney.

    I made a trawl through the superb Eisenbahn Kurier book on the Cl.78 but could not find any other photographs of these locos with shorter chimneys working in Germany. However, a huge number were delivered new with the shorter chimney including the very last in 1924, well into the Deutsche Reichsbahn (DRG) period. Instances of German locomotives running with “shortened” chimneys are very few but there are examples of Classes 38, 44 and 50 running in this mode.

    As an aside, I have seen photos and film of Cl.38 4-6-0’s working into/out of Arnhem with normal and shortened chimneys. I could not find any operational reason for the chimney to be shortened when working cross border trains.
    P A D, michl080 and allegheny1600 like this.
  16. michl080

    michl080 Western Thunderer

    good evening,

    I can't do much with the frame until the finney7 gearbox will arrive. With customs in the way, this may take some time, so I started with the boiler. The boiler in the kit is half etched 0.4mm brass, so that the boiler bands would be about 9mm high. Most pictures show barely visible bands, so I decided to roll the boiler from a piece of 0.2mm brass and add the boiler bands later.


    If there won't be any domestic duties tomorrow, I might get the smokebox ready.

  17. Steph Dale

    Steph Dale Western Thunderer

    Hi Michael,

    I'm looking forward to seeing how your build comes together. :thumbs:

    With encouragement from @Yorkshire Dave, I've recently re-started my HO scale version with a new chassis design (to FREMO standards, RP25-88):
    Screenshot 2021-03-14 151113.jpg
    I'm aiming for the VES-M Halle test loco 78 425 (the one with the 'Quetschesse' chimney @mickoo mentioned earlier) and eventually 78 009. '009 will need significant changes to the chassis as well as a new cab; the prototype series were different in many details.

    In your honour, I've shown the DB brakes and rods in this view (the DR/DRG versions are already drawn); I'd also like to get clearer views of the late DB rods, such as on 78 246.

    Valve gear and cylinders to get on with today; they're well started but need fiddling to finish off. Still plenty to do, with the ashpan and well tank the most significant missing items.

    allegheny1600, AJC and simond like this.
  18. King Crab

    King Crab Active Member

    150713.HAMBURG.2.1 copy.jpg
    Not perhaps much use for detail information, but just
    to show that there is a BR78 alive and well.
    Here is 78 468 in 2015, a regular visitor to Hamburg perhaps once or twice a year on enthusiast trips.
    allegheny1600, Richard Spoors and AJC like this.
  19. michl080

    michl080 Western Thunderer

    Good evening,
    second try after the computer ate my first posting.
    Roger, thanks for the picture with the mysterious short chimney.
    Peter, there are seven survivors of class 78. I have been planning to visit the Nurenberg DB-museum for a photo shooting of 78 510. The museum was in lockdown until earlier this month. I tried to get one of the "visit appointments" that were available, but had no luck. The museum was shut down again a couple of days ago. :rant:
    Steph, you H0 drawing shows already more parts than my whole kit. It is very simplified to the point where I really want to introduce some improvements. Right now, I am trying to model to transition from the boiler cladding to the smokebox that has a strange cylindrical/conical shape. I habe no idea how this sheet was actually shaped. I try to model the transition with Milliput, but that is not plastic enough to be shaped with my little jig. Vallejo putty didn't work either, but I am sure, it will look OK after some further trials.

    Blatt XIV 4 d2 - Längsschnitt und Querschnitte_verkleidung.png IMG_20210321_222701_sml.jpg

    No progress with the frame, I am waiting for a gearbox. The Finney7 gang is sorting oversee shipping.

    allegheny1600, P A D and AJC like this.
  20. michl080

    michl080 Western Thunderer

    Milliput is a really astonishing material. Is there any way to dissolve the white superfine? I have been trying Acetone without success and am runing out of ideas. :eek:

    I hope I won't have to remove the stuff mechanically.