Mickoo's BR modelling

Pugsley

Western Thunderer
dual brake locos appear (not all mind) to have an extra box in front of the fuel tank on the LH side, looks like a tool box and this alters the intake grills and such,
That's where the compressor normally lives on the dual brake locos although, as you note, they don't all have it. I'm not sure where the compressor would be on the dual braked ones that don't have the extra cabinets, from memory there isn't much room anywhere else to put one.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
That's where the compressor normally lives on the dual brake locos although, as you note, they don't all have it. I'm not sure where the compressor would be on the dual braked ones that don't have the extra cabinets, from memory there isn't much room anywhere else to put one.
Yes, it was a toss up between tool box or compressor and it looked like tool box doors on there LOL, I suspect those locos fitted with compressor not in this box are indeed up front on the RH side where the second exhauster used to be, IE swap out one exhauster and insert a compressor. Air braked only locos with out either box I presume will have a compressor in the existing exhauster box at the front LH side.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Oh dear, confusion reigns. Styrene does not solder well because of the effect of the hot stick on the polymer.

I tried to secure styrene to brass as an overlay when building the compartment doors / corridor screen of a JLTRT carriage. Superglue seems to work well for a while... and then the overlay comes free with a vengence, subject is covered in an MRH article by Gordon Gravett (actually about using ABS sheet rather than styrene). Evostik is probably more likely to work and here the challenge is to get a non-stringy fixing. I ought to have used brass strip to make the overlay rather than styrene.

regards, Graham
Evostik impact adhesive might work?

Re superglue, which part is coming off which, IE which part still has the adhesive on, I suspect it's the styrene so finding something that bonds to brass is the key, odd that you can glue aircraft wings on with the stuff but not a piece of plastic! There must be an adhesive that will adhere to both surfaces effectively, some here use it to bond slaters plastic horn guides to brass chassis effectively so something must work.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Re superglue, which part is coming off which, IE which part still has the adhesive on, I suspect it's the styrene so finding something that bonds to brass is the key...
Actually, the other way around. Most superglues do not bond well to the styrene - although I have been advised since the problem came to light that one of the Pacer range is specific to styrene... just not tried as yet. CA products work well with ABS and nylon because those plastics absorb water and water is the catalyst for the superglue reaction.

Slater's horn guides are made from one of the engineering grades of nylon - see above.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
As a postscript to the above, since finding out that CA glues do not work well with styrene I have tried to buy sheet and strip ABS. Years ago the Plastruct stands contained sections which were made from ABS, now those same stands seem to contain only styrene materials. Anyone any ideas as to accessible sources of ABS for modelling purposes?

regards, Graham
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Actually, the other way around. Most superglues do not bond well to the styrene - although I have been advised since the problem came to light that one of the Pacer range is specific to styrene... just not tried as yet. CA products work well with ABS and nylon because those plastics absorb water and water is the catalyst for the superglue reaction.

Slater's horn guides are made from one of the engineering grades of nylon - see above.
Interesting, I'll just sit and watch my 1:32 class 40 disassemble its self in front of me LOL, about 80% of the loco is bonded with Zap superglue and to date (must be over a year now) it's adhered pretty darn good :thumbs:, I think Steph uses the same adhesive for his coach sides etc and the critical part to the equation is making sure that each surface has a key for the adhesive to bond too.

It'll be quite a while before I get to that stage, as you've already noted, Plasticard does not respond well to the heating stick so the door skins will almost go on last, thus, how long was it before your parts started to part, a test piece I think is in order.

I wonder if it's possible to coat the styrene in something that adheres well to styrene but also to super glue, maybe a coat of styrene adhesive will form a layer that super glue can adhere to effectively.

Re catalyst, if you glue two pieces of metal together which one is the water absorbent part? When I did the class 40 I did moisten one side first by wiping with a damp tissue before bonding and then used a foam kicker to ensure complete adhesion. Water per-se is not the catalyst, it's the removal of oxygen and moisture is a good oxygen barrier, that's why foam kickers are so good at what they do.

Hmm much pondering, testing/ failure to do LOL.
 

Dikitriki

Flying Squad
Hi Mick, Graham

The problem is that not all superglues are superglues, and 'CA' covers a vast range of glues with different properties. I never buy the £1 cheapies, and have a range of 'superglues' on the workbench - almost as many as the different solders!

I would use Loctite 480 to glue plastic to metal. Black, slightly rubbery with an extended setting time. Oh, and make sure you're sitting down when you find out how much it costs:)

Richard
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
The problem is that not all superglues are superglues, and 'CA' covers a vast range of glues with different properties.
What you say is very true and why moisture does initiate the necessary cross-bonding in some "super-glues" (as in the original field dressing stations... hold wound edges together and apply medical grade glue).
I would use Loctite 480 to glue plastic to metal. Black, slightly rubbery with an extended setting time. Oh, and make sure you're sitting down when you find out how much it costs...
Now you are talking... engineering grade materials and at a price. Not one I can afford...

regards, Graham
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Graham, I wonder if your issues wasn't the adhesive or perhaps the materials but the size you were trying to join, I'm sure I've read somewhere that large differing materials do not work due to the flexing that can occur, a coach side for example would be a large surface area, but door handles or vents would not.

Richard, are we talking the same stuff here? I personally don't consider that a bad price for a specialist adhesive if it'll do the job :thumbs:. Compared with Zap a gap it's about 4x as much, we may even have it stocked at work and I'm sure our department needs some for our tool cupboard ;)

Kindest
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
I never completely trust a superglue to make the bond, so I usually give it something to work with by scratching both mating surfaces. On the Mk2s I'm doing at the mo, where underframe bits have previously been epoxied in place to stop them dropping off during the build, cyano has worked well this time. Where possible, I also use a wire pin or peg in a hole to give extra support and strength.

Be careful with impact adhesives, too. I have had styrene dissolve after a couple of years. :eek:
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
I never completely trust a superglue to make the bond, so I usually give it something to work with by scratching both mating surfaces. On the Mk2s I'm doing at the mo, where underframe bits have previously been epoxied in place to stop them dropping off during the build, cyano has worked well this time. Where possible, I also use a wire pin or peg in a hole to give extra support and strength.

Be careful with impact adhesives, too. I have had styrene dissolve after a couple of years. :eek:

Heather, fully agree, surface preparation is everything, Steph taught me that when working with CA and Styrene on the Class 40 :thumbs:. I usually sand smooth and then add scratches with a skrawker or blunt knife or sand with a coarse grade sand paper. I've a mind to drill some small holes in the existing doors to allow the adhesive to splurge (technical term) through (CA thick) or other adhesive as yet undecided. Each door has two catches and these will be brass and pinned so will hold that end of the door and there are door handles (brass wire) which will pass through each styrene panel and into the brass behind.

I'll also be making a new bonnet top as the kit one is overwidth in several areas, that'll probably be Plasticard as well so will need fixing to the bonnet sides, but being more subtantial can be pinned or even bolted on internally.

Impact adhesives have to be matched to the material your using, as you say, some are aggressive and can cause long term damage which is why I'm more inclined to go with a CA adhesive of some sort as they tend to be more stable in the long run.
 

Dikitriki

Flying Squad
Richard, are we talking the same stuff here? I personally don't consider that a bad price for a specialist adhesive if it'll do the job :thumbs:. Compared with Zap a gap it's about 4x as much, we may even have it stocked at work and I'm sure our department needs some for our tool cupboard ;)

Kindest

Hi Mick

That's the stuff.

The price varies enormously - and that can be due to the use-by date which is pretty important on this product. It's best to find out the expiry date before purchase.

Richard
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Hi Mick

That's the stuff.

The price varies enormously - and that can be due to the use-by date which is pretty important on this product. It's best to find out the expiry date before purchase.

Richard
Richard, top job, thanks for the HU on sell by date, nice to know tips like that! I believe you can extend the sell by date by keeping it in the freezer, thats where my CA currently resides, much to the chargin of da 'boss'

I'm sat here wondering what the military modellers use, they attach etched parts (some quite large) to their models all the time and most kits use the same plastic as Plasticard so they must have an adhesive that works for them, granted their models tend not to get 'handled' as much as ours but they must use some form of adhesive and from my dim and distant past of 1:700 ship modelling and 1:35 armour it was a CA.

I'm planing to do quite a lot of mixed media modelling (resin, brass, nickle silver, plasticard, 3d printed) in the future so finding an adhesive that works and works well is quite important.

All, does anyone produce brass or nickle silver strip, 5 thou thick and say 1-2mm wide? Tried the usual suspects (Eileens, Squires, Metalsmith) with little success, will take 10 thou at a push, failing that it'll be etch off cuts if I can find enough or any that suit my requirment, or thinking aloud, getting my own etch strips made up.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Mick,

Yonks ago (technical term rather than a term of derogation) I bought brass shim in sizes from 2 th to 10th - the product came in a tin with about five or six sheets of metal 2" x 12" - brand name Usafoil, probably from Smiths of Clerkenwell. If you cannot track that down then ask the Good Lady to look for shim brass / copper in those stores which supply the Ladies' craft market (eg. Hobbycraft).

Brass / copper up to 5th can be cut easily with a scalpel blade - a sharp one does best...
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Graham, I have some 5 thou brass sheet already, it was what I used for the footplate sheeting, I used a skrawker and dind't find it that easy to cut and to be fair was looking for an easy way out.

I'll try again this evening to see if I can carve off a 1-1.5mm strip with a combination of skrawker and Stanley knife, that remains reasonably flat and useable :thumbs:
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
Mick,

Rather than try to cut right through, try just scoring with the skrawker then break the metal along the line by wiggling back and forward a couple of times. With the sizes you are working with, you will probably have to clamp the 1mm wide part under a steel rule on the bench and wiggle the large part of the sheet. I've started using an Olfa cutter to do my skrawking on thin sheet and it works very well.

Jim.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Jim, yeah got the Tamiya one and its pretty good but found I had to score quite deep to break it off, will try the steel rule trick tonight, have just the right tool to do all that.

Regards
 

Pugsley

Western Thunderer
Yes, it was a toss up between tool box or compressor and it looked like tool box doors on there LOL, I suspect those locos fitted with compressor not in this box are indeed up front on the RH side where the second exhauster used to be, IE swap out one exhauster and insert a compressor. Air braked only locos with out either box I presume will have a compressor in the existing exhauster box at the front LH side.
Sounds about right to me!
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Just a small update, wanted to have something for West Mersea today so whizzed up the bonnet sides and front plus some of the side boxes, and with scotch tape holding on the rear cab face went for a whizz along Love Lane track work. No issues with side play or lack there off and some math and trig proved that you need (roughly) 0.5mm for a 10' radius curve on an 08 wheelbase, phew, so onward with inner chassis and wheels this week...and a shopping list for Kettering...and having seen both green and blue Class 31 in the flesh, it's going to be hard to keep the moths in the wallet next weekend LOL.

Borrowed a piece of Sopwith Steves S7 track to play with (Peter said I could! LOL) so that makes a nice photo base, pity about all the other junk around it :).

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Best Michael
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Small amount of progress on the 08 this week, added some small angle with rivets around the fuel tank bases's only to run into another more difficult problem to solve. The half etch for the inspection hatch is too low, the angled strap only just fits in and leaves no gap like the 1:1. Not sure what to do, too late to add a thin shim (5 thou?) to fill the half etch and smooth effectively (should of been done on the flat before folding up) so may just have to live with it, or add the inspection hatch at the correct height and fill the remaining half etch with thin filler or something.

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In other news collected some sundries from Kettering yesterday to allow me to do the CSB for the chassis, quick calculation and soldered the relevant parts to chassis and horn blocks, I used 1.0mm ID brass tube and 25SWG for the required 1mm deflection, 25SWG is 0.51mm dia so there's some slop in there when the loco is picked up but overall it all works fine and dandy. The 25SWG gives a lot of (relative) travel and makes for a very soft suspension which led to some observations (below) but these may actually work quite well in operation and make for a lively and animated motion, less wooden and more prototypical?

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Next I ballasted up the loco to the intended weight, around 1000g and it sat nice and level all around but I noted some things that may need changing.

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I'd read somewhere that the intermediate axle should be sprung less, yet no one seems to be prepared to put pen to paper as to how exactly much. So I opted to go with 34.28 - 31.44 - 34.28% however this seems to still place a lot of load on the centre axle, so much that it'll probably have a tendency to nose when running, now real 08's nose and swing about like crazy so it might be a desirable trait to keep but may have to decrease the intermediate % a little to 36 - 28 - 36% to help reduce the model to nose. It didn't help having all the test weight way up high which gave the model a very high metacentric height, that'll have to come down a lot and may help the previous observations.

Getting the weight in is going to be a problem, the motor is going to take up a bit of space and filling the rest of the bonnet is going to have negative effects and the nose will drop considerably. The problem is the wheel base, it's not in the middle of the loco, there's a greater overhang to the rear, obviously the cab cannot be filled with weight so suspect a large lump of lead under the floor will be required to balance the loco at the aft end.

What's next, well the compressor box needs to go in and the exhauster box lid, also need to add the same riveted angled support around the front of the radiator base where it joins the foot plate and then work out some way to make the new bonnet roof, possibly detachable for the build to assist getting the weight in.

There's also the boxed BCV sitting glowering at me, especially as I said it could come out today as a distraction and progress as the first piece of freight stock I will have LOL.
 
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