7mm Mickoo's Commercial Workbench

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Superb quality and detail, what more can you add to any model? seen or unseen, A complete BLP along with the smokebox detail.
There's actually quite a lot more ;) Some you cannot due to scale and practical considerations and the rest would require a lot more rebuilding/hacking of the core kit, so much so that you might as well start afresh and that's like having a dog and barking yourself :))
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Quick update on the BLP FMC second build. A few nick nacks to fit on the chassis to complete and the metal casing core is completed, all square and test fitted.

The 3D roof is just plonked on top but does snuggle down nicely between the gutters.

The previous one require some messing with print settings and some post processing, so this time I tried some new settings.

So far no post processing and much simpler print settings, the only downside is that the print time has gone from 17 hours to near 44 hours; not the sort of thing you want to be doing with storms around so time to invest in a mini UPS I think :thumbs:

The real proof will be when the witness coat goes on, hopefully tomorrow.

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spikey faz

Western Thunderer
Quick update on the BLP FMC second build. A few nick nacks to fit on the chassis to complete and the metal casing core is completed, all square and test fitted.

The 3D roof is just plonked on top but does snuggle down nicely between the gutters.

The previous one require some messing with print settings and some post processing, so this time I tried some new settings.

So far no post processing and much simpler print settings, the only downside is that the print time has gone from 17 hours to near 44 hours; not the sort of thing you want to be doing with storms around so time to invest in a mini UPS I think :thumbs:

The real proof will be when the witness coat goes on, hopefully tomorrow.

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Me likey very much! :thumbs:

Mike
 

Rob Pulham

Western Thunderer
That's a really interesting photo Brian, in that it confirms that you shouldn't believe everything that you read on the internet.

To elaborate, I read sometime in the past that the air smoothed panels were made of some kind of particle board and being built during/just after the war in times of shortage I never questioned it. I doubt that particle board would have rippled quite like that.
 

AJC

Western Thunderer
That's a really interesting photo Brian, in that it confirms that you shouldn't believe everything that you read on the internet.

To elaborate, I read sometime in the past that the air smoothed panels were made of some kind of particle board and being built during/just after the war in times of shortage I never questioned it. I doubt that particle board would have rippled quite like that.

I've never heard that before: the amount of rust on the ones that made it to Barry should have scotched that one. It's entirely possible Bulleid proposed such a thing (because it's Bulleid, the man would try anything), but it certainly wasn't a standard feature. The old saw about Swindon's Westerns being smoother than Crewe's is similar: I'm pretty sure that if there was a difference, it was in the amount of filler employed...

Adam
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Crawling closer to the finish line.

There's a bit of a gap between the casing rear and cab front so I need to tweak the rear bulkhead a touch, that'll close the gap up and a skim off the resin roof rear to match will finish that joint off.

It's annoying as the first engine was spot on but it looks like the skins on the second etch have been overcooked a fraction, they're 0.2 - 0.3 mm shorter which is enough to not match the core and leave a gap. The gap is better at the rear as it's easier to resolve, at the front it's all sorts of pain with the front deck and sloped front.

Other than the deflectors that's the casing plate work signed off, the rest is detail work.

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Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen

Western Thunderer
Crawling closer to the finish line.

There's a bit of a gap between the casing rear and cab front so I need to tweak the rear bulkhead a touch, that'll close the gap up and a skim off the resin roof rear to match will finish that joint off.

It's annoying as the first engine was spot on but it looks like the skins on the second etch have been overcooked a fraction, they're 0.2 - 0.3 mm shorter which is enough to not match the core and leave a gap. The gap is better at the rear as it's easier to resolve, at the front it's all sorts of pain with the front deck and sloped front.

Other than the deflectors that's the casing plate work signed off, the rest is detail work.

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Hi Mick,

Probably been asked before but what adhesive do you use to join the print and etch together,

thanks
Tim
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Hi Mick,

Probably been asked before but what adhesive do you use to join the print and etch together,

thanks
Tim
Tim,

Most of the time it's Devcon 5 minute 2 part epoxy but recently I'm not so happy with it. Surface to surface has never bonded well no matter how it's cleaned/rouged up so I always add a mechanical fixing, for boxy objects they're made hollow and a small bit if hooked, pigtail, staple piece of wire is soldered to the model and the part fits over that, the glue bonds well to the inside cavity and really well around the bit of wire.

However that's not always practical so I try and find another way to add a mechanical fixing, chimneys have a rebate in the base for some thin wall brass tube, tat bonds well to the resin and can be soldered to the smokebox of glued from the inside.

Axle box covers (tenders usually) I make a hole in the rear that lines up with the etched hole and then print a small capped plug that is pushed through from the inside, either Devcon or actual resin is used to bond the two together. The resin is actually a very good adhesive, it sticks to metal like :shit: to a blanket but when you shine the UV curing pen on it the beam only penetrates so far so you run the risk of uncured resin inside your joint. Clear resin cures right though and I've seen many figure or fantasy modelers buy a tub of clear just as an adhesive to bond the two resin parts together.

They also advocate Gorilla glue, not quite sure which type but I've got a bottle here to try and E6000+ so I'm going to run some trials with those; both have long cure times which I'm led to believe makes them stronger.

In the case of the BLP, the roof is secured with ten 8 BA studs inserted in the base and nuts to secure, however I've found if you tighten the nuts too much it'll pull the studding out of the resin roof, in that case I let the Devcon set almost solid, pulled the studs out and coated in (where the Devcon glue is) superglue and pushed them back in, so far none have moved yet. The Devcon bonds to the thread really well but the smooth hole it pulls out of. I can design recesses in the holes or even a small enlarged 'bulb' cavity at the end of the bore so that the adhesive forms a bulb inside the resin, I've done some preliminary tests and they don't come out.

On the 4F I had trouble with the horn guides and spring assemblies, they just kept popping off after a few weeks, so I made some new prints with 0.8 mm holes where the studs that hold the dropper casting in place are, then I drilled through the frames where the holes were and inserted micro rivets with a flattened head to represent the stud that goes through there. A chamfer on the hole on the frame exterior face allows a nice fillet of solder to grab the rivet and then dressed smooth.

The intermediate axle I needed to get in and out so designed the spring/hornguide assembly with recesses to hold 14 BA nuts, held in place with chamfered screws from the outside.

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I also had a problem with the ash pan on this model, even though it's tight in the frames it just worked loose and that's a first. I just drilled right across the frames and through the ash pan walls and inserted 0.8 mm wire right across, it stopped the frames spreading/flexing (which is why I think the ash pan dropped out) and secured the print in place.

Here's the 3F with thin wall tube for dome and chimney, plus pockets inside the sand boxes; you can just see the hook of wire that the glue will bond to on the frame exterior face.

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The safety valves are bored right though and 0.8 mm wire inserted which then passes through the firebox top and soldered from below, it's a good mechanical fixing but also reinforces the small fragile printed valves.
 
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John Walker

Active Member
Mick

I have been working on a centre for a scale 7 Bullied wheel but I am being frustrated by shrinkage which seems to be variable and ongoing. I can print a centre which is tight on the tyre, turn round and it falls out! As yet I have not tried gluing the centre into the tyre. Since the resin elongation is much greater than the shrinkage I was hoping that an araldited or devconned joint would remain secure. Maybe that is not the case and you are experiencing shrinkage pulling the joint apart.

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Dave Holt

Western Thunderer
Super looking wheel centre. Shame you're having dimensional stability problems. Good luck with finding a solution.
Dave.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Nice BFB wheel, I'm surprised you're having dimension stability when it's been printed flat on it's back, it certainly looks like it was printed on it's back, if not then I don't know where the layer lines are coming from on the rear faces. That's about the only way to print circular objects and then post process any artifacts, adding any sort of angle or tilted orientation will result in ovaling or warping. There are ways to reduce the effect with settings but I've never really eliminated it as yet, either on circular or engineered shapes which need straight edges etc.

For securing the centre (and I have put some thought into it as I want to print some wheels myself.....when I find time) I would file two or three grooves in the hub front to back and then solder wire in the groove and make corresponding slots in the wheel, that should stop the risk of the hub moving and I'd probably look at securing with super glue. The hard part will be filling the grooves accurately to preserve quartering.

For the rim I'd try to find a slow acting super glue, though those tend to be less viscous and I'd look at some sort of mechanical back up plan, if you look at the back of Slaters wheels you'll see a small V notch in the steel rim and the plastic over spills into that to form a locking point, it'll stop the rim slipping but not falling off.

My problem is not shrinkage it's movement, if there's any movement between the dissimilar materials then the joint often fails, the art is to stop or reduce that risk of movement or add another mechanical joint.
 

John Walker

Active Member
Mick, yes, the wheel is printed on its back with a 1mm raft and lots of 0.6mm diameter supports. The supports leave tiny dimples which can be removed with a chisel blade. The back tapers beyond the tyre and that surface is not perfect but is largely hidden when in the chassis. I think the imperfection is caused by the resin not completely draining from the surface between the supports and curing leaving slight "bumps".

Shrinkage is about 1%, so about 0.4mm on a Bulleid wheel. I could allow for that if the end result was consistent but it is not. Our thoughts are now moving to assembly jigs, mechanical fixing and glue along the lines you suggest.

I press the axle and crankpin inserts into the centre immediately after printing and, so far, have not had any problems with movement. In this case the shrinkage is working to my advantage. Quartering is achieved at that stage. In the final event I expect to add Loctite to those joins.

I think the shrinkage and inserts are contributing to a slight lack of concentricity of around 0.01 to 0.04mm. By inserting the centre into the tyre with a glue layer I am hoping that that can be removed within the accuracy of the jig together with any swash resulting from the seating of the centre on the inside face of the lip on the tyre.

Tim, that was our starting point and we continue to explore that possibility. However it is an expensive option and my guess is that the issues we are experiencing with the resin would be worse with waxes and casting. The up side is that, if we can find the right material, it could be machined for accuracy.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
The material looks like Siraya Tech Fast Navy Grey and if you're printing flat on it's back then your print should be reasonably concentric, however as you get to the edges of the build plate the light beams are not perfectly perpendicular as I found out on the HO bridge beams. They tend to bend outward so your vertical edges have a widening taper as it moves away from the build plate, that may also be down to the FEP which is very close to the securing rim plate so it's flexibility is vastly different to that in the middle.

The upshot of that is that the peel forces vary quite a lot from the edge to the centre, that can have an affect on warping and part squareness over large areas. The other factor is that most resin tanks are oblong so the peel forces are not uniform as you move out from the centre point, only a circular tank would achieve that. Peel forces pull the layers and can distort parts, especially if they cover reasonably large surface areas, one way around that is to increase your exposure time to harden the printed resin more and bond it to the previous layer a bit better.

Most people are in a rush so dial down their print settings, the given figure for FNG on my machine is about 2 - 2.2 seconds, I run vastly higher figures, now that may be down to a weaker UV lamp I have or any other unknown factor, but I found a massive increase in part tolerances by increasing the layer print time as well as reduced warping, but that may all just be local to my machine.

Inserting the crank pin and hub whilst the part is still green is a good idea, the resin will give a little and should grip/bond well to the metal parts but if you want to be really sure (top secret Area 51 tip here ;)) then just use a very fine brush and paint some raw resin from the tank onto the outside of the metal parts before inserting, then cure the whole assembly and the uncured resin will/should bond to the metal. It's best to paint the resin at night, there being no sunlight so no UV to upset or partially cure the resin on the brush or before it's all cured at once.

Once cured I would be tempted to turn the outer edge to accept the rim to be honest, that way it'll be concentric on the shaft and perfectly circular, you'd need to add a bit of sacrificial material to the rim to aid turning back so you get a nice fit. I'd be tempted to turn a small groove around the outside of the resin rim, something for the adhesive to soak into and bond with, perhaps the same on the inside of the steel rim, doesn't need to be much, just a shallow groove in either, there by making a sort of adhesive 'O' ring.

You could also trying witches brewing your own resin, lots of people mix tenacious with FNG, it makes it less brittle and a little more elastic, this is mainly for mini figures with swords, spears, horns and spikey bits etc; I think you loose some detail (but I've not seen that confirmed) but on a wheel there's little detail to loose so it might be a way forward. Ball park figure is 25% tenacious, 75% FNG, I've not tried it so not had any experience, but others who print minis by the thousand swear by it.

Finally, as you've found and just noted, resin printing is not consistent, what printed well yesterday does not mean it'll print well today, especially if you're working to tight tolerances in engineering type shapes, doesn't matter for Dwarfs, Elves and Dragons as they're organic shapes and no one will notice.
 

John Walker

Active Member
Thanks Mick, that gives me lots of food for thought. My printer is a Phrozen mini 8K and I am using Phrozen Aqua-Grey 8K resin. The resolution is 0.022 microns so I am using a layer height of 0.02mm to give me the same approximations in all directions. I generally use an exposure of 1.3secs but did try 1.8 after a chemist friend advised that UV only cures the surface so post curing is not working throughout the print. My theory was that I needed to cure the individual layers more thoroughly. I'll try increasing exposure some more.

Your observation about tapered edges is interesting as I tapered the edges inwards by 0.05mm to make it easier to assemble. It is very difficult to measure but it looks like I could afford to increase that taper a bit more to compensate for the light beams. I have been printing one wheel at a time but my build plate would take 3 in a row. It will be interesting to see if I get even more variation with 3 up.

I haven't tried machining the resin but that might prove a good option.

Onwards and upwards, I hope!

A modern image dragon should be growing but if its an old pregrouping one it would be shrinking.
 
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