MMP 16 ton mineral wagon kit

Overseer

Western Thunderer
Superb work, Overseer. Are you going to paint the springs/w-irons? I'm building some of these units and am considering chemical blackening.

Regards

Frank

Frank,

It is mostly just a straight forward build of the kit. I probably will blacken the W irons and springs before painting them, I ended up not using the springs as intended and made new leafs. I will put together a piece on the small number of deviations from the kit when I get home next week.
 

djparkins

Western Thunderer
Frank,

It is mostly just a straight forward build of the kit. I probably will blacken the W irons and springs before painting them, I ended up not using the springs as intended and made new leafs. I will put together a piece on the small number of deviations from the kit when I get home next week.

I hope you have not deviated from our accurately sprung buffer and coupling assemblies! Now that really would be a shame. It would be interesting to see the underframe of the wagon in comparison.

Regards,

DJP
 

ZiderHead

Western Thunderer
Have any of you tried this?
https://www.whiteensignmodels.com/p/Master+Models+Blackening+Agent+for+Photoetched+Parts+Brass+Barrels+MM001/17006/

It is supposed to work on solder too. I do not have any yet but looks interesting.

DJP

I picked up a BC Perma Blue kit from the local shooting club, came with degreaser, rust remover (phosphoric acid maybe?) and a bunch of sponges, swabs, steel wool, wet/dry ... all sorts of generally useful stuff for £13! They had some very nice guns too, although half of them were worth more than my car :eek:

It blackens brass in seconds neat, way too strong so I'm going to try it diluted 10:1 and see how that works, need to find a pyrex dish and slosh everything round in there for a while and see what happens, havent tried it on soldered parts yet (although Ive heard that rust remover might blacken solder) ... its all an experiment really ... :confused:
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
Sorry to disappoint DJP but I have to admit to using Slaters buffers. I might add dummy buffer spindles and springs to fill the spaces. I decided to use the Slaters buffers because they were on the bench and I thought it would be nice to have brass buffer guides to go with all the rest of the brass on the wagon. The white metal ones will find a use on a plastic wagon. After deciding to use the brass buffers I looked at the prototype photos and realised that the Diag 2134 wagons don't seem to have RCH buffers as modelled by both MMP and Slaters. Instead they had a two rib buffer guide with a squarer base. So out with the file to modify them to look like the photos. The coupling hooks are as provided in the kit, the laminated profile is good but they need to be filed to match the prototype shape. I was having trouble compressing the provided springs while soldering on the retaining washers so cut a couple of millimetres off, and still soldered the washers on crookedly.

The underside revealed.
FB MMP16t under.jpg

At this point I should say that I am not an expert on steel mineral wagons so had to rely on Bob Essery's LMS wagon book and the photos on Paul Bartlett's very useful website for the details on the wagon. It is known that there were plenty of variations in this batch of wagons built during the transition to British Railways designs. I am also probably not a good reviewer of etched wagon kits as this is only the second O scale etched wagon kit I have started and the first completed (nearly), so this is not a review just a record of what I did. The first was about 20 years ago and will never be completed as it was not going to look like its prototype. Personally I don't think etched brass is a good material for wooden wagons but it is very good for steel wagons. As well as scratch building, I have built quite a few other wagon kits in various media and a few etched loco kits. The intention was to build the kit as provided and use it as a benchmark to bring the other wagons up to.

Overall the MMP kit is very good and easy to build. The body is dimensionally accurate and looks exceptionally good. I ended up having some reservations about the running gear and some of the brake components, and replaced some of the components for a variety of reasons. The changes I decided to make to the kit as I went along are as follows (starting at the top):-
- the corner reinforcement pieces were not used - photos show some with and some without - and small pieces of etch waste were soldered in to fill the gap at the fixed end.
- the side and end panels were lightly tapped using a repousse hammer to replicate deformed platework (this is optional!).
- the end door lower reinforcing horizontal was modified to look more like one of the photos - there seems to have been lots of variation in this area. While on this, I think there is an error on the artwork for the end doors with the half etch lines to locate the horizontal angles is on the wrong side - it is easy to fix by filing the grooves after laminating the two layers of the door.
- right at the end of the build I decided to add a length of 0.3 mm wire along the bottom edge of the side panels to represent the protruding floor plate which is one of the characteristic features of the BR 16T mineral wagons, the sides being externally welded to the top of the floor. The kit includes a fine etched line to represent this but I decided it would look better with the floor appearing to project past the side.
- the buffers have been mentioned above.
- the standard Diag. 2134 kit comes with LMS style W irons but I decided to model one of the wagons with BR style W irons so ordered them at the same time as the kit. On comparing them to photographs I think they are over size so filed them down a bit and cut the bottoms off. The spring hanger 'ears' are also too big and look much better filed down.
- I like the idea of the phosphor bronze springs but after assembling a set I decided that they are too thick and bulky. They would also need a huge weight on them to function. The only PB sheet material I have is too thin so after looking at the various cast and moulded springs I had lying around decided to make six leaf springs using 0.25 mm brass and the etched top leaf from the kit. The single PB leaf provides some springing. The separate BR W irons come with a choice of sliding bits, I chose the shortest ones to allow space for the springs to have a prototypical camber in them.
- the supplied axleboxes look nqr to me so I used some modified Exactoscale ones, which matched the shorter sliding parts.
- Exactoscale plastic brake blocks were used purely to avoid any potential shorts on the wheels. The laminated ones from the kit look good and will be used on a plastic wagon where shorting is not an issue.
- I ended up using Exactoscale brake push rods because I think the kit ones are too high/wide and decided not to spend time filing them down. The Exactoscale ones are probably too thick but this is less visible and they look the right height. I used Exactoscale brake levers because they were in front of me and saved having to laminate the kit ones, I had some difficulty getting the bends in exactly corresponding positions before laminating the kit ones so they have been put aside for another wagon.

I still have to add the various chains and paint the wagon.
FB MMP 16tside.jpgFB MMP 16t endd.jpgFB MMP 16tdoor.jpg

So most of the changes I made did not have to be made to complete the kit. Overall, the kit was a pleasure to build and I look forward to building the other MMP kits I have waiting to be built, and future releases.
 

ZiderHead

Western Thunderer
Those brake shoes look great, I checked C&L and they only appear to be available as part of the brake gear sets at £7.50/wagon, which is a shame because at say £5 for a sprue of 16 they would become the standard fit for anyone building brass/whitemetal wagons and they would sell loads of them ...
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
Those brake shoes look great, I checked C&L and they only appear to be available as part of the brake gear sets at £7.50/wagon, which is a shame because at say £5 for a sprue of 8 they would become the standard fit for anyone building brass/whitemetal wagons and they would sell loads of them ...
There are 8 brake shoes in a set, each set has two sprues with 2 axleboxes, 2 springs and 4 brake blocks on each. I hadn't realised the price had gone up so much, I should have bought more from Exactoscale at £2 a set. They are very nice.
 

djparkins

Western Thunderer
<<Sorry to disappoint DJP but I have to admit to using Slaters buffers. I might add dummy buffer spindles and springs to fill the spaces. I decided to use the Slaters buffers because they were on the bench and I thought it would be nice to have brass buffer guides to go with all the rest of the brass on the wagon. The white metal ones will find a use on a plastic wagon.>>
The castings are abour 2% short of pewter - we just add a little lead to keep the gates small. They are very strong indeed. I just thought it a shame as these are the first wagons on the market to my knowledge where the springing of the buffers follows the prototype for RCH type buffers - being sprung externally and against an underframe member. Cost a lot to have those buffers turned too!!!

<<The coupling hooks are as provided in the kit, the laminated profile is good but they need to be filed to match the prototype shape>>
That is what you are supposed to do. It is important to point out though that this applies to the cross-section only and then only on the section of the hook outside the buffer beam. Side-on the hook is exactly right as per LMS/RCH drawings. Your posting kind of implies the reverse.

<<Personally I don't think etched brass is a good material for wooden wagons >>
Depends on how they are designed - see method for outrLMS 2102 Open or LMS Tube Wagons - then etching really comes into its own.

<<-the corner reinforcement pieces were not used - photos show some with and some without - and small pieces of etch waste were soldered in to fill the gap at the fixed end.>>
Well at least we supply them! - and they ARE the different types to those fitted to the BR wagons - but you can find variants with the BR rounded ones being fitted to LMS wagons in later years. The whole point was to maximise the difference visually between the LMS & BR kits to give max. variation for the modeller.

<<- the end door lower reinforcing horizontal was modified to look more like one of the photos - there seems to have been lots of variation in this area. While on this, I think there is an error on the artwork for the end doors with the half etch lines to locate the horizontal angles is on the wrong side - it is easy to fix by filing the grooves after laminating the two layers of the door>>
Not so - see hatched lines on instructions. We would not have made the same mistake on all EIGHT kits with this style of door! The location slots/grooves for the horizontal plates are at EACH END of the end door and on the rear of the fascia plate. You can see outlines/stresslines on the inside of many of the wagons surveyed for these kits where the horizontal plates are welded and we were just trying to represent these.

<<I decided to add a length of 0.3 mm wire along the bottom edge of the side panels to represent the protruding floor plate which is one of the characteristic features of the BR 16T mineral wagons, the sides being externally welded to the top of the floor. The kit includes a fine etched line to represent this but I decided it would look better with the floor appearing to project past the side>>
We did it this way as it would have been unreasonable to expect customers to solder the sides to grooves in the floor and keep them vertical!.

<<the standard Diag. 2134 kit comes with LMS style W irons but I decided to model one of the wagons with BR style W irons so ordered them at the same time as the kit. On comparing them to photographs I think they are over size so filed them down a bit and cut the bottoms off.>>
The ones we measured for the kit were probably the wrong size!!! Again by suppling LMS ones we were looking to maximise the visual differences between LMS & BR wagons for the modeler - see link to Paul Bartlett's excellent web site:
http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsmineral/h2eaf8043#h2eaf8043

<<The spring hanger 'ears' are also too big and look much better filed down>>..
Yes - these had to be beefed up a bit for strength in relation to the spring assembly.

<<I like the idea of the phosphor bronze springs but after assembling a set I decided that they are too thick and bulky. They would also need a huge weight on them to function. The only PB sheet material I have is too thin so after looking at the various cast and moulded springs I had lying around decided to make six leaf springs using 0.25 mm brass and the etched top leaf from the kit. The single PB leaf provides some springing. The separate BR W irons come with a choice of sliding bits [horn blocks], I chose the shortest ones to allow space for the springs to have a prototypical camber in them>>
We only intend the the top leaf to do the springing anyway !- so there seems to be a contradiction in what you are saying as, had you used the kit springs for the rest of the assembly, it would have made no difference. Right back when we first did these on the Glass Truck we tried .25mm but they looked too thin so we went with the Erik Olsen method of using .3mm and I think his results speak for themselves. Also a slight chambfer on the outer edges of each spring [with a scalpel or swiss file] works wonders on the appearance. BTW - I 've yet to see anyone build these and form the springs to match each other - yet! I feel an online build coming on - if only I could find the time.

<<Exactoscale plastic brake blocks were used purely to avoid any potential shorts on the wheels. The laminated ones from the kit look good and will be used on a plastic wagon where shorting is not an issue>>
Not a problem if you ensure zero sideplay as you should with all our wagons. Its a personal thing but I do not like plastic brake shoes.

<<I ended up using Exactoscale brake push rods because I think the kit ones are too high/wide and decided not to spend time filing them down>>
Again, we only measured the incorrect prototype! For BR admittedly - but they did check out with the drawing in LMS Wagon Drawings

<<I used Exactoscale brake levers because they were in front of me and saved having to laminate the kit ones, I had some difficulty getting the bends in exactly corresponding positions before laminating the kit ones so they have been put aside for another wagon>>
You use the template provided for the outer lever and then form the inner lever to match. Once the two are fused together with solder you can perform any 'tweaks' required as they will form as one.

I hope the above will be helpful to you and any other builders on our kits.

Excellent workmanship on the build BTW

David Parkins,
Modern Motive Power,
www.djparkins.com[/quote]
 

Osgood

Western Thunderer
Those brake shoes look great, I checked C&L and they only appear to be available as part of the brake gear sets at £7.50/wagon, which is a shame because at say £5 for a sprue of 16 they would become the standard fit for anyone building brass/whitemetal wagons and they would sell loads of them ...

What material are they please?
 

Simon

Flying Squad
Superb workmanship and the actual kit itself looks really good - thank goodness there aren't any G1 models in David's range:p

Actually, I think this is just the sort of quality and approach that G1 needs.

Simon
 

djparkins

Western Thunderer
Superb workmanship and the actual kit itself looks really good - thank goodness there aren't any G1 models in David's range:p

Actually, I think this is just the sort of quality and approach that G1 needs.

Simon

Fully appreciate that Simon - thank you - but how many gross will I sell? [joke]

Regards,

DJP
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
Comments on this and other threads have made me wonder if there is a way of running an online group build of a kit to help people improve their soldering skills, with everyone involved building the same kit at the same(ish) time. I think anyone interested could successfully build an MMP wagon kit. I use quite basic equipment so don't think the cost of tools should put anyone off, most would already be in the toolbox and they are all useful for other modelling tasks. The kits are also reasonably priced.

So would anyone be interested? If so, which kit would be preferred? And any ideas for how it could work most effectively are welcome.
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
As I will be a long way from Bath this weekend this will have to be a 'virtual display' for Larkrail. The MMP kit is now painted and weathering commenced. I decided to go with grey livery, fairly recently repainted from its original bauxite so in quite good condition. The beaten panels are subtly visible, mainly when the light catches them.

MMP diag2134 p6.jpgMMP diag2134 p3.jpgMMP diag2134 p2.jpg

I am happy with the way the wagon is turning out. I will probably leave the final bits of weathering until some of the other wagons are ready and finish them as a batch.
 

Phill Dyson

Western Thunderer
Comments on this and other threads have made me wonder if there is a way of running an online group build of a kit to help people improve their soldering skills, with everyone involved building the same kit at the same(ish) time. I think anyone interested could successfully build an MMP wagon kit. I use quite basic equipment so don't think the cost of tools should put anyone off, most would already be in the toolbox and they are all useful for other modelling tasks. The kits are also reasonably priced.

So would anyone be interested? If so, which kit would be preferred? And any ideas for how it could work most effectively are welcome.
That's a very good idea:)....if a few members who would like to get involved would like to make themselves known?
 

djparkins

Western Thunderer
That's a very good idea:)....if a few members who would like to get involved would like to make themselves known?

It is a good idea - but I think it should be a Connoisseur kit rather than an MMP one. It would be a much fairer, level playing field. They are more basic models [as they are intended to be] but like all Jim's kits, they fit together well.

Our kits fit too [!!!] - but there is less in a Connoisseur kit to get your head around for someone new to etched kit construction. Just my thoughts.

Regards,

DJP
 
Top