My 7mm dabblings

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
How are you getting on with the axles supplied, they are O f/s and roughly measured seem to be 2mm too narrow, I could add 1mm washers each side (not really the S7 way) but might end up having to fire the lathe up and turn some new ones from 5/16th rod and then file the flats on for the cranks, do you have your wheels yet? Mine are still in the post and I'm assuming they do not have the normal Slaters square socket to fit on the end of a normal axle?

Mick - this question has been covered here before, by LNERJP, I shall try to locate and post a reference.

May I suggest, respectfully, that we do not discuss the availability of S7 axles for the MMP Cl.08 until Jeanpaul has recovered from his S7-to-FS-S7 malady and advised what he is going to do for his MMP Cl.08?

regards, Graham

PS to LNERJP - if you intend to procure another set, maybe there are some here who might wish to bulk the order.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Heather, that is certainly an option to bear in mind and not one I had considered :). Oh and it true WT spirit, pictures please :thumbs:

I had considered doing one of the early 58-62 ones with out the wasp stripes but with the two large horizontal zones in yellow, think they may have been on black locos but with BR numbers and logos? However the kit comes with faint etch markings to aid painting the wasp stripes so that idea is still born, not checked to see how hard or easy it would be to remove them to allow for non wasp paint schemes, maybe the vac only kit has ends without these fine lines?

For the moderately interested anorak 08 enthusiast BRILL did an excellent three part series on the 08, mostly in the late steam era, 60's or so, some nice details and a fair bit of techincal info alongside driving info and anecdotes, think it was in 95 but will jot down here when I get home the exact magazines for others if they are interested.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Mick - this question has been covered here before, by LNERJP, I shall try to locate and post a reference.

May I suggest, respectfully, that we do not discuss the availability of S7 axles for the MMP Cl.08 until Jeanpaul has recovered from his S7-to-FS-S7 malady and advised what he is going to do for his MMP Cl.08?

regards, Graham

PS to LNERJP - if you intend to procure another set, maybe there are some here who might wish to bulk the order.

Graham, ok will do some more searching, though I find the search here only goes back a few months? I tried to search for something I posted way back last year and the search engine did not go back that far.

Re Jeanpaul, oh dear, sounds painful LOL I am reminded of the stock Top Gear phrase "how hard can it be" but if JP struggled then one assumes blessed hard! :)

For reference I need six at least, I say at least because later in the year I might procur some more 08s to bulk out my planned layout, they are as you might say, quite ubiquitous :thumbs:

Kindest
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
Here's the BR version. Not sure I can procure and image of the LMS side. The photos date back to a pre-digital age. Guess I'll have to dig the box out of storage and take its portrait again.

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English Electric 0-6-0 diesel-electric 350hp shunter 12039 by Snaptophobic, on Flickr

For those that want to know the provenance of the shunter, it's a Jim Harris etched and white metal kit. The story goes we were exhibiting our S7 layout at Bletchley back in the 1990s, and Little Jim had his stall there. We saw the kit on display, and purchased it. Jim was at lunch, or wandering round the show, and as soon as he heard we'd bought it he rushed over and, in his best Black Country dialect told us flat out the kit wasn't good enough for S7 and he'd happily refund our money!

We told him to wait and see. While not perfect - which Harris kit ever was? - it made into a perfectly acceptable model with a little scratchbuilding and bodgery.
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Best Beloved and I pretty much got away with a dual-period 08, all bar a couple of picky points only a true anorak might have noticed. With the early black livery, we managed to get away with one side being an LMS 350hp one, and the other a grubby BR one from the 1950s. :cool:

Including the 6" difference in wheel diameter between the two types....? :eek: :))

I've got my coat (anorak)... ;)

Steph
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Including the 6" difference in wheel diameter between the two types....? :eek: :))

I've got my coat (anorak)... ;)

Steph
LOL mind you can loose almost that much over the years with tyre turning, think it might be as much as two inches allowed off the tread.
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
I found a couple more prints of the "08" in LMS disguise and playing with a brake van. Somewhere in the chaos I call a filing system, I have the original negs, and I couldn't be bothered to break out the scanner just for these 6x4s, so you'll have to make do with quick snaps from my camera.

As you'll note, the LMS number was kind of dictated by what fitted on the cab side, not having suitable transfers the customised size the LMS workshops used. :rolleyes: Yes, it does have smaller wheels that the LMS variants should have had, but your average exhibition visitor didn't know any better, and it let us play dual periods on the layout which tended to lack any modern traction for 1947, or any steam traction for 1959...

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Thread hijack over. :)
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
The Journey continues, Etch 20 - Piercing saw 0. Forewarned is forearmed so with that in mind I shuffled the bits around in construction with regards to the frames and ladders, one thing I did do was remove the three large tabs on the chassis and added an angle iron as per the prototype, sadly no rivets so I might add a thin strip with rivets at a later date, might!

The advantage of that allows me to move the frames, why, well with S7 wheels there's naff all clearance. The frames should be 9mm from the valance but that makes them rub on the wheels virtually all the time, moving out by 0.25mm allows a little play but 0.5mm would be better, however that amount makes them a little bowed, well 0.5mm difference around the wheel area when compared to the buffer beam area. Not sure how that's all going to work so left as 0.25mm and will see what happens when the correct 08 wheels turn up (currently using Stanier 4000gal tender wheels which are 3" too small in dia).

When it came to assembly it actually turned out that I could mount the front ladders first and then slide the frames in afterward, a bit fiddly but possible, so I guessing if it were that simple....I've missed something out? But it all looks like its there and all fits.

Next step is the buffer overlays and then the new footplate deck from 5 thou to get that thin lip around the edges and I gave up on making the floor removeable, stupid idea that! Will have to work out an alternative using the cab roof and some sprung clips or something.

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Dog Star

Western Thunderer
The advantage of that allows me to move the frames, why, well with S7 wheels there's naff all clearance. The frames should be 9mm from the valance but that makes them rub on the wheels virtually all the time, moving out by 0.25mm allows a little play but 0.5mm would be better, however that amount makes them a little bowed, well 0.5mm difference around the wheel area when compared to the buffer beam area. Not sure how that's all going to work so left as 0.25mm and will see what happens when the correct 08 wheels turn up (currently using Stanier 4000gal tender wheels which are 3" too small in dia).
Before we get there... what is the dimension between the inside faces of the outer frames on your model? and what is the maximum dimension over the wheels? (tyres / boss?). You may gain when you wheels are re-profiled if metal is removed from the face of the tyre.

When it came to assembly it actually turned out that I could mount the front ladders first and then slide the frames in afterward, a bit fiddly but possible, so I guessing if it were that simple....I've missed something out? But it all looks like its there and all fits.
The photos look like you have added the front ladders and still been able to fit the outer frames... in doing so did you have to flex either the front horizontal plate or the outer frames? Peter has yet to decide on how to get the frames into his underframe given that he has followed the isntructions sequence.

regards, Graham
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Graham, currently across the tyres it is 38.83mm and with the 0.5mm added in frame width I have 40mm between inside faces, across the boss is 40.3mm, it's actually the spokes nearest the boss that are touching the frames and are actually preventing the tyres from shorting out.

As can clearly be seen above, the inner chassis is much narrower and allows a lot of side play for the wheels, too much, so I'm hoping that once that has been reduced (washers? ugghhh) the side play should stop and thus tyre contact with the frames. I'll aim for almost zero on front and rear axles and a small amount on the intermediate axle to aid tight corners, though the short wheel base and gauge widening should reduce that issue as well.

Frame attachment, The only part that needed flexing (couple of mm) was the base of the front ladders, I have not added the diagonal brace and step (4 & 3NS) or the front step brace (9&10 NB these parts seem optional on later dated machines).
I tilted the frames 45° to get my added angle iron past the frames (you may not have to do this) and tank mount then slid it forward 10mm and dropped the rear end down under the overhangs and slid back until it stopped, then dropped the front down between the steps and buffer beam (the buffer beam may have flexed a little in this process) with a nice tight click.

One word of warning there is a strip on the front buffer beam that is supposed to (I presume) fit inside the frames unless I have bent it wrong and it fits over the frames once inserted, I found these to be too wide so trimmed them back to the frame inner width and then the frames dropped in easily. You need to cut where there are red ovals to get your frames to fit easier, a width of 40mm or just under will suffice, I am just under so there is a small gap which I will fill with a small piece of angle (see more below).

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In the last image you can see some of the extra work I wish to do, where the red oval cuts are I will add a short piece of angle to secure that plate to the frames, then I will cut where the red lines are to remove that section which has the holes in from the buffer beam pipe stands etc. This will be followed by a solid piece shaped accordingly which will fit under the retained plate and will thus form the lip the buffer beam makes with this part on the 1:1 loco, IE the real plate is not flush with the buffer beam lower edge.

Hope that makes more sense, if not fire away with the questions.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
A little update, armed with tape and scribe I measured our resident loco and found frames to be 25mm thick and between inside faces to be 1685mm, which in 7mm is 38.73mm.

So, conundrum is, which bit is wrong, clearly my frames at 40mm are and it would appear that the (temporary) Slaters tender wheels are too at 38.83mm, though to be fair the 1:1 gap between frame and tyre is scarily small at 15mm (o.34mm in 7mm). It also looks (examining axle boxes) like there is virtually no side play on any of the 1:1 axles.

S7 standards use 38.6mm over boss and from what I can deduce 37.6mm over tyre. I had hoped to get away with just turning the rim (1st class bodging from the back row and pure idleness LOL) for S7, but it looks like I'm going to have to bite the bullet and turn both the rim and boss and then move the frames back to 39.5mm spacing, moving them closer to 39mm will impart a small inward bow so 39.5mm it'll be as getting the soldered ends behind the buffer beams will do more damage than good. Certainly on the next one I'll aim for close to 1:1 frames so lesson learned here either way.

The next issue will be removing side play, I think it's safe to say that working leaf springs (certainly for this model) are not on the agenda anymore, so I will have to add CSB on the inner chassis, which should be reasonably easy and may just require the exisitng axle holes to be slotted a few mm above and below the required centre position.

Current thinking is a tube that fits over the OD of the current bushes and is the width of the inner faces of the inner frames, then the bushes extended equally each side to touch the inner face of the wheel boss and loctited (possibly soldered) it to position. Or reverse the bushes so that the bush flange is inside the frame and space with 3/16" rod to stop side play and then turn the outer end of the bushes for a snug fit between wheel bosses. Either way the CSB can then rest on the bushes or tube to give suspension.

Hmm more doodling and mind yoga required :)
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
A little update, armed with tape and scribe I measured our resident loco and found frames to be 25mm thick and between inside faces to be 1685mm, which in 7mm is 38.73mm.
...

S7 standards use 38.6mm over boss and from what I can deduce 37.6mm over tyre.
Hi Mick,

The S7 Standards for Track and Wheels gives a dimension over tyre faces of 37.67 - 37.77mm and that is less than the scale equivalent of the prototype dimension for "between frame plates". I cannot find a "standard" for the dimension over wheel bosses and if there is then there would be a such a number of caveats / exclusions / deviations as to imply that the standard would be advisory rather than mandatory. Whilst I do not have a photo of a Cl.08 driving wheelset to hand I shall be surprised if the wheel centre stands proud of the tyre face.

So, if you turn the Slater's wheels to "standard" over tyre faces, then you can turn the face of the centre to something between 38.0mm and (say) 38.2mm which leaves 0.5mm clearance and you will probably need that when fitting the inner frame to the footplate.

If you wish, I can measure the Slater's Cl.08 wheels which we have - they have been "done" for S7.

regards. Graham
 

Stu Fox

Western Thunderer
Mick,

The vac only 08 kit comes with cab/bonnet ends in plain finish without wasp stripes, also the cab roof is bent and folded to a spring clip shape. The one in my avatar (although not a close up) is not fixed, but sprung in.

I really enjoyed the build of this kit (still haven't finished it) - I take it you'll be using the sprung hornblocks rather that the beam compensation that I used and now regret? I also used Slater's 7mm plunger pick-ups and will be changing to 'wipers' as I found the plungers not reliable enough.

Regards

Stu
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Hi Mick,

The S7 Standards for Track and Wheels gives a dimension over tyre faces of 37.67 - 37.77mm and that is less than the scale equivalent of the prototype dimension for "between frame plates". I cannot find a "standard" for the dimension over wheel bosses and if there is then there would be a such a number of caveats / exclusions / deviations as to imply that the standard would be advisory rather than mandatory. Whilst I do not have a photo of a Cl.08 driving wheelset to hand I shall be surprised if the wheel centre stands proud of the tyre face.

So, if you turn the Slater's wheels to "standard" over tyre faces, then you can turn the face of the centre to something between 38.0mm and (say) 38.2mm which leaves 0.5mm clearance and you will probably need that when fitting the inner frame to the footplate.

If you wish, I can measure the Slater's Cl.08 wheels which we have - they have been "done" for S7.

regards. Graham

Graham, more when I get home but this http://www.scaleseven.org.uk/About_S7/Standards/Resources/reprofiling.pdf gives a dimension of 38.6 over axles when talking about boss reduction, right hand text page 1 half way down, unless I misread it. Going to shoot over to the pit and check boss over tyre width and given that theres only 15mm tyre to frame I suspect your right :thumbs:

Addendum,

After a quick poke under the 1:1 08 the boss is the same width as the tyre and the boss rubs against the inside of the axle box which has an inner flange of...you guessed it 15mm thick. so the only side play will be between the axle box flanges which is next to nothing, but must be something, if not due to wear then general fit, but it'd be so small that once scaled to 7mm would be almost negligible.

On returning home and examining said wheels, I noted that some were not fully home on the shaft, magnifying glass examination, a good push and tighten of the axle screw now shows a tyre width of 39.0mm or there about's, also noted that frames were indeed straight longitudinally from front to rear which leaves 40mm between faces. The middle can be adjusted with a slight bow but the ends cannot and have to match the buffer beam etches so 40mm appears correct from the kit etches. I also grabbed a square and noted that the frames were not 'exactly' 90° with the footplate but kicked in along the lower edge and thus exaggerating the tightness of the wheels. Having done all that I'm now sad to say I have too much room LOL, before any tyre width reduction.

The current wheels are 3.86mm wide and taking 0.6mm off the front face is I fear, going to remove all of the tyre flange that holds in the plastic spokes? and it'll give even more play and push the wheel face even further from the frames. I now have a 0.5mm gap between frames and tyres, take another 0.6mm off and its a huge 1.1mm gap and is now visually jaring, I suppose I could bend the frames back in along the lower edge to reduce the gap, which is where you notice it most.

For the time being I'm going to leave alone and come back later and the mean time do something a little more productive LOL.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Mick,

The vac only 08 kit comes with cab/bonnet ends in plain finish without wasp stripes, also the cab roof is bent and folded to a spring clip shape. The one in my avatar (although not a close up) is not fixed, but sprung in.

I really enjoyed the build of this kit (still haven't finished it) - I take it you'll be using the sprung hornblocks rather that the beam compensation that I used and now regret? I also used Slater's 7mm plunger pick-ups and will be changing to 'wipers' as I found the plungers not reliable enough.

Regards

Stu
Stu,

That would make sense, Vac only are from the earlier generation when wasp stripes were not painted, it's not a problem as mine will both be BR and need stripes, but it is good to know that you can get a kit with out wasp stripe etched lines.

Beam compensation, no afraid not LOL, I was initially going to try leaf springs as per 1:1 and as seen on recent MMP wagons etc, but that's shelved (certainly for the first one). I could use Slaters horn blocks but was simply considering slotting the existing holes a few mm up and down of the centre point and using the existing top hat bearings, so long as longitudinal play is kept to a minimum I see little difference over Slaters horn blocks, especially as I won't be (or not planning to) using the small springs for such items but will use a CSB set up which will rest on the top hat bearings. All that is to be conjugated and decided in the near future.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Mick
Why not use a split axle set-up rather than pickups? I've used the Slaters plastic horn blocks which insulate power from the frames quite sucessfully.
Tim

Tim, it's not as simple as that, I don't think split axles and plastic horn blocks will help in this instance, what's happening is that the tyre is touching the outside (real 1:1) frames before it even gets to any pick up, if you go around a tight corner then the front and rear will slide one way and the tyre will touch say the left frame for a LH curve where as the intermediate will slide right and thus touch the right frame, there by shorting the track through the frames.

The solution is to prevent the tyres from touching the frames, I'm going to work on virtually zero side play fore and aft and 0.25mm on the intermediate, that will still leave it clear of the frames by a large margin, I've also a mind to make a new (etched hopefully) fold up inner frame with slots already cut for CSB springing and at the correct width for S7 to reduce side play, or I may just modify this one to the correct width. The current one has some lower sections which can be seen behind the wheels quite clearly and they throw the look when viewed side on from low angles, I'll post a photo tonight to show what I mean. It's not a kit issue, just my visual issue and if your going to all the trouble of S7, then it really should not show, but I understand why they are there to help support the axles for conventional bearings.

I also seem to have developed a problem with the axle alignment, it all looks square and on eone side the axles line up perfectly with the outer frame horn guides, but the other side they are all out by 0.5mm or so and all in the same direction, the horn guides are bent up from the outer frames, six in all so getting all six wrong is pushing it a bit, especially as all six on the other side are perfect, it could be that the outer frame is misaligned but the etch and folds are a near perfect fit for evey other part of the chassis, which only leaves the inner frame top hat bearing holes and I very much doubt given the quality of the rest of the kit that these are out, bit of a mystery at the moment LOL.

BTW how do you affix your plastic hornblocks to brass frames, I do have a set of these but not used as I'm not sure how to affix them, it'd save a lot of hassle as I can then just slot the inner frames and use these. at the moment the inner frames, spacing, CSB and axle box guides are a mass of doodles on scrap paper LOL, but hopefully this evening I can begin to sort through it all and come up with a plan.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
...one thing I did do was remove the three large tabs on the chassis. The advantage of that allows me to move the frames, why, well with S7 wheels there's naff all clearance. The frames should be 9mm from the valance but that makes them rub on the wheels virtually all the time...

Before we get there... what is the dimension between the inside faces of the outer frames on your model? and what is the maximum dimension over the wheels? (tyres / boss?). You may gain when you wheels are re-profiled if metal is removed from the face of the tyre.

... currently across the tyres it is 38.83mm

... armed with tape and scribe I measured our resident loco and found frames to be 25mm thick and between inside faces to be 1685mm, which in 7mm is 38.73mm.

S7 standards use 38.6mm over boss and from what I can deduce 37.6mm over tyre... it looks like I'm going to have to ... turn both the rim and boss and then move the frames back to 39.5mm spacing, moving them closer to 39mm will impart a small inward bow so 39.5mm it'll be as getting the soldered ends behind the buffer beams will do more damage than good.
Mick,

Several posts up this thread I asked about the distance between the frame plates of the model before you moved the plates ouwards. I cannot find that information in your responses, I think that the answer is 39.5mm by deduction of other details given in one of your replies.

I have measured the wheels for Peter's Cl.08 - these were obtained from Jonpaul and he had them turned to S7 standard. Unless JP is able to tell us there is no easy way to know how much was removed from the front face / rear face of the tyre. I mention that because the wheels measure 3.6mm (-0 +0.05mm) across the width of the tyre and 3.8mm (-0 +0.05mm) over the thickness of the wheel centre. These numbers mean that a wheelset is going to measure 38.4-38.5mm over the tyre faces and 38.8-38.9mm over the wheel centre.

This is going to be tight... looks like not much more than 0.6mm total clearance between wheelset and frame at the centres.

regards, Graham
 
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