On Heather's Workbench - going wide

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
I'm not sure where to go with this build. There are several aspects to it that make it novel, at least to me.

A while ago, I received an email enquiry about building some 7mm scale coaches. Nothing strange about that. Three coaches? No problem. GWR broad gauge? Interesting, but I can't see a problem. Client in Australia? Okay, I'm up for a challenge!

Anyway, the initial contact was regarding a passenger brake van to diagram V8. It seemed the accepted method to get a BG V8 was to hack about an existing "narrow gauge" kit. The kit in question is a V13 PBV, and the modifications involve a cut'n'shut manoeuvre on the sides, shortening and widening the underframe, and new ends to match the wider body.

The client happily shipped the kit to me, on spec as it were, so I could assess things properly and get back to him with my thoughts.

Cutting a long story short, after some research over at the Broad Gauge Society web site, and some very helpful email exchanges with the society's stores man, we were all set to get the right bits to begin operations.

Then I noticed there was a V8 body kit in the stores list. That would make a heck of a difference. Indeed, that's what we've ended up with.

The underframe is still for the narrow V13, and requires shortening and widening. I'm still pondering the best way to approach that.

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This is the stuff that came from the BGS. The bag of castings included a brake cylinder and the oil lamp tops.

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This lot is the detail parts from Slater's and CPL. I still need to get some decent sprung hornblocks, and I think the ones from Roxey will be just the ticket.

The BGS supplied the wheels, too. Sadly, they were the wrong ones, so I've just popped them back in the post and I await a set of Mansell coach wheels.

If this build goes okay, there ought to be two more BG coaches, and I think the V13 I have in hand will also be built at some point. The client has a mixed gauge layout, which will be a treat to see. The plan is to try and get this van finished to coincide with a visit to Blighty later in the year. That way it may survive the trip home in one piece!

Don't expect this build to spark into life quickly. I keep taking the parts out to study them, pulling the books out, and poring over the few bits of information the client managed to find for me, and then putting it all carefully back on the shelf again. Acquiring the detail parts has spurred me on a little, so I think I shall cut some metal soon.

Thing is, I'd rather get on with the WD or the 10001, but then again, we have a deadline for a change.
 
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Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
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I've made a start. At least the main body panels have been cut out and cleaned up. There are various curves to be formed: the turn under on the sides, and the ends, plus the lookouts. A little annealing will be in order to help there. You'll note there are no tabs to aid construction, and the narrow gauge IKB kit instructions refer to inner ends which are bolted to the floor. I think there will be a deal of scrap etch put to good use. I am toying with the idea of compartment divisions to help retain the body shape as well.

Now, the floor and chassis. As I mentioned before, it has to be shortened and widened. The plan is to get a Stanley knife and score right down the longitudinal centre a few times. Hopefully I can then break the thing in two and widen appropriately. As to length, some study and measurement has led me to believe the axle spacing is near enough identical on both narrow and broad gauge vehicles. This means I only need to shorten the floor at the ends, with the added advantage that the etched footboards and tie bars can be retained.

There are two BG parts which I assume are replacement solebars. I will be honest and say, at this point, it's almost worth building the chassis from scratch, as by the time I've hacked the NG one about the only part still being used is the outer vee-hanger!

That's also reminded me I need to get some sheet metal in for the roof.

This is turning into a right adventure!
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
Now, the floor and chassis. As I mentioned before, it has to be shortened and widened. The plan is to get a Stanley knife and score right down the longitudinal centre a few times. Hopefully I can then break the thing in two and widen appropriately.

Heather,

If you've got an Olfa cutter, use that. It actually cuts a groove in the brass and makes bending/breaking a lot easier. The Olfa blade seems to stand up to a fair amount of this abuse - mine tends to get used more for metal scoring recently and is still in quite good shape.

Jim.
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
I just remember there's a sheet of 14 thou brass in the upstairs workshop. I've made up my mind to make the floor and chassis from scratch. It will be definitely tidier - and stronger - than a patched-up etch. The brake gear, suspension and axle guards are easy to add.

Crikey! I made a decision! Will wonders never cease?
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
Jim, thank you! I'm visiting RailEx the weekend after next, as Roxey will be in attendance. I'll source an Olfa cutter at the same time, hopefully.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Heather,

Visit the Raymond Walley web-site and click on the link for the GWR V13 PBV (in the "new / updates" section on the home page). There is a great similarity between what you are describing and what Raymond has written in regard to construction of the body.

regards, Graham
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
Cheers Graham. It's a different kit, but there are inevitable similarities. Useful info there I shall make use of. :thumbs:
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
As this build comes together - surprisingly quickly, I might add - there is a distinct feeling of railway modelling from a couple of decades ago. By that, I mean there is a kit, but it's not quite all there, and some of it has to be mixed and matched from other sources.

Not that that is a bad thing. I think it's making an interesting project for me.

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This morning I attacked the sides and ends with the gas torch. The subtle turnunder is not hard to form, but it helps to have annealed the metal before you start. I was a little worried about the fine grille in the "dog box" door, but both sides have survived the rolling process.

After heating just a bit, an inconsistent colour between dark straw and a hint of electric blue, I place the piece face down on my trusty telephone directory (somewhere around the builders' merchants section, if memory serves) and used a black felt marker to remind me where the waist panels were. The curve is limited to the lower panels, so with my one inch diameter aluminium rod and some of my body mass, I gently rolled away. Checking against the curve on the side of the end etches, I stopped when I had gone far enough.

Rinse and repeat for the ends themselves.

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The lookouts were another matter entirely. I couldn't work out why the kit of parts had been blessed with four copies, so I selected a pair and annealed. Forming the compound curves for the flare at the bottom is not simple, not helped by the panel working out longer than the sides - intentional? Don't know.

Here's where I come up against the paucity of prototype information. Very few images show a V8 van, and my sources only have one photo of the successor narrow gauge V13. I'm left with trying to interpret forms and shapes from other vehicles of similar vintage. How does the bottom of the lookout fit with the body? Does it flare into the floor, or does it fold under the floor? There is actually a slot in the bottom, where the bottom of the side is folded, but I couldn't make it all fit happily together. In the end, I tweaked things until I was happy it looked about right. Frankly, if I can't find it, who is going to notice?

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As it turned out, what I thought were four identical lookouts showed very slight variations in panel length. The first one I folded up was too short, so I then set about the second pair instead. Then I decided I was right first time!

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This is the slightly untidy solution I've ended up with. Once soldered to the body side it should be fine.

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With two ends, two sides, lookouts and solebars done, I made some interior partitions to hold the body shape and help support the lid. They will also act as blinders to avoid daylight through from end to end.

Now I can work out how large the floor has to be, and also the roof. What fun!
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
I fear I may have confused people from the first post. Understandable, considering the winding road that led me to this build!

Just to be clear, the passenger brake van is from one of three lots built in the late 1870s to the 7ft gauge. Later in life, some may have been narrowed by slicing a chunk from down the middle, which is why the BGS etch includes "narrow" ends.

The original plan was to take a standard gauge IKB diagram V13 kit (which I understand had its origins in the Colin Waite kit that can be found being built on Raymond Walley's site), and make mods to it in order to backdate it to its broad gauge antecedent. After working out which components would help me do the job, I noticed the V8 body kit, though it still requires modification (or as I have decided, building from scratch) from a standard gauge underframe, and that is the direction we finally took. The V13 kit may yet be built as a standard gauge coach, for the client models the dual gauge period.

The helpful stores manager at the BGS compiled a list of the various bits and pieces I would require to complete the van in 1877-1885-ish condition. I now have most of those, with one or two things I still need to get that I didn't realise I needed until I actually started to build things!

The client has since outlined the other BG coaches he would like, including at least one of the so-called convertible vehicles, where a narrow gauge body was fitted to a BG underframe. These were created at a time when it was realised that, despite their best efforts, Brunel's gauge had lost the war and the railway entered what may be the most fascinating period of mixed gauges and all kinds of strange vehicles before the final dominance of Stephenson's "cart gauge" in the mid-1890s.

I hope that makes things a little less muddy.
 
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Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
Can anyone tell me if the Slater's GWR 4-wheel coaches have lost wax brass footboard brackets, and whether Slater's will be likely to sell them separately? Thanks!
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Can anyone tell me if the Slater's GWR 4-wheel coaches have lost wax brass footboard brackets, and whether Slater's will be likely to sell them separately? Thanks!
Yes and Yes although you may have to ask Mr. White nicely. If you read through Mr. Walley's web site (the carriage section) you will see that Slater's castings are often used to replace less-substantial parts from the original kit.
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
I finally got my act together and ordered a bunch of these from Connoisseur.

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I guess this build will have to edge toward the workbench once more.
 

flexible_coupling

Western Thunderer
I'd like to see a few snaps of those once you've formed them up. It's hard for me to visualize what's going on there - the idea seems excellent though.
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
I spend a long time pondering about builds. Some kits go together with the minimum of fuss, while others need to exercise the leedle grey cells. This BG build is one of the latter.

As you know, there are parts sourced from all kinds of sources for this build. The body, sole bars, buffer beams and axle guards are from the BGS etch. Axle boxes and springs are from CPL, as is much of the brake rigging detail. Buffers and draw gear and other sundry details from Slater's. What remains will be either scratch built or jury-rigged from the bits box. It's model making as it used to be back in the 1970s!

Yesterday, between various chores that took me out of the house, I pondered making up the floor. This led me to think it may be wise to actually fit the axle guards and springs to the solebars beforehand, my reasoning being such fiddling about would be easier in the flat, as it were.

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Here are the main parts. Having pushed out the solebar rivets, aligning the axle guards is made a little simpler. A little harder is adjusting the CPL cast springs. They arrive with a large cast bar, designed to fit behind the solebar, but which would foul the axleguard when soldered in place. A simple matter to carefully chop the bar down, leaving a mounting section at each end. All went well, save for one J-hanger which parted company from the spring. The brass is quite soft, but I will assume a casting flaw in this case. Some drilling out and a repair was effected using some 0.7mm brass wire.

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The axleguard etches have holes in them to aid sweating them to the solebar. I marked the location of each guard against the rivets, and tinned up to the mark. Having tinned each guard, it was a relatively simple matter to align them and apply flux and heat. The same technique was repeated with the spring castings.

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The view from the front. The stacked holes between the axles are for fitting the step board brackets. The holes are larger than the Slater's casting pegs, but it means the solder hopefully will flow on to the rear of the bracket as well.

One problem I have is sourcing images of the details. I have several books here, but there are precious few detail images taken of the prototype in the period. Many thanks, while I am at it, to Les Golledge and Graham B for their freely-given help in sourcing information. Some images show an external bracket fixing the J-hanger to the solebar, while others don't. As I don't have suitable parts in the kit or my bits box, I am going to leave this detail out for now, until I can confirm its use on the broad gauge PLV. Much will be hidden by the step boards, I suspect.

Incidentally, the van will have vacuum brake gear, but oil lighting. I've just realised that is why I can't see gas cylinders under the chassis!
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
Figuring out the buffer planks took a spot more pondering. Received wisdom with etched kits is the half-etch fold line is always inside! but that's not always the case. With nothing to go on but my own wits, and the fact one buffer plank appeared to sport footsteps, I was able to work out the folds.

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From this, with reference to the sides and ends of the coach body, and some peering at contemporary photos of the real thing and its relatives, I could work out how the buffer plank fitted to the solebars.

Plenty of tinning, and some bits of scrap timber with right-angles, I got the sides and ends of the frames together. While it still needs some bracing to maintain the width and rigidity, I couldn't help posing the body parts to see where I was heading.

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A view into one end reveals the essentials of fitting the buffer planks to the solebars. I can see some remedial soldering may be required.

It is interesting, with the body posed like this, I can begin to see how much more work is required for the underframe than the top sides. It strikes me this is a common feature when modelling rolling stock.
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
Once I get the wind in my sails, there's little to hold me back!

I realised I didn't need a complete floor to fit between the solebar frames, but I did need something for the suspension units to sit on (or hang from, depending on which way the thing is up).

Using the CPL spring casting plates as a platform, three slabs of brass sheet were hacked out. I just need to work out whether they are low enough for the suspension units, or if some vertical adjustment is needed.

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Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
Something has been bugging me about the solebar and axleguard details. I think it's because the frame is a single thickness etch, where the real thing would have been a bit thicker. The axleguards are straight on the back of the frame, with the result the spring hangers protrude from the front of the frames.

I'll have to consider this some more. It's fairly obvious the axleguards and springs need to be rebated a little way. Where's my thinking cap gone?
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
Well, having considered things, and studied as many photos as I could, I made the decision. Out with the gas torch, and all the construction last week became a kit of parts once more. It was the only way.

If I had decided to retain the flat version, I would have eventually hit the problem of the axle boxes protruding too far and interfering with the foot boards. Better to sort this kind of thing out now, rather than rue the day at a later stage when it's impossible to remedy.. One of the joys, I suppose, of building a kit by the seat of your pants!

Luckily, on my materials shelf I found some brass U-section 7mm x 2mm.

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The plan was to solder the channel to the rear of the solebar etch.

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This process was made easier by the tinning I did for previously attaching the axleguard etches.

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Here's the first axleguard and spring casting in place. It looks so much better now. Bonus shot for the repaired J-hanger.

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And there's the first side completed, with axle boxes in place this time. Now to get on with the other one. Of course, I will have to narrow the sheets I cut for the suspension units. Then again, better than having to widen them!
 
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