Painting and lining

Steph Dale

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
alcazar said:
Does anyone know if it's possible to modify an old Rotring pen nib unit for use as a lining pen? Has it been done?

I can't see the difference between one and those sold by Bob Moore and Peter Spoerer.
Click to expand...
Jeff,
You'd have to disassemble the head and modify it by removing the valve; Rotring pens have a needle and float to stop the ink flowing too quickly.
Steph
 
Heather Kay

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
The difference is the Rotring system has a fine needle through the tube nib. This projects a tiny amount, and is depressed when you begin to draw, encouraging the ink to flow. With the Bob Moore pen, it's just a fine tube and the paint runs through it by capillary action, and drawn out as you drag the pen along.

You would be very unlikely to get even thinned paint to work with a technical pen. It's bad enough with the right pigmented inks!
 
adrian

adrian

Flying Squad
alcazar said:
Does anyone know if it's possible to modify an old Rotring pen nib unit for use as a lining pen? Has it been done?

I can't see the difference between one and those sold by Bob Moore and Peter Spoerer.
Click to expand...

It has been tried and it doesn't really work, some people have managed it after a fashion. That was one of the first things Bob tried.

Bob wanted a system that would take humbrol enamels neat, no thinning. He went through many iterations before he could source the correct size tube. It's not just the tube diameter either but the length is critical, the brass cup sizing was also carefully optimised and finally the end of the tube is carefully diamond lapped. So believe me there is a world of difference between a rotring pen and Bobs lining pen.
 
warren haywood

warren haywood

Western Thunderer
And there is no adjustment, to draw a fine line with even thickness and density the paint must be quite thick, With tube pens you are advised to thin it with lighter fluid to thin it to allow it to flow which defeats the object of a thin line.
All I can say is get some bow/ruling pens and practice.
I've seen models lined with the tubular pens and the lines always look a bit wide and transparent, with a decent bow pen you can draw a consistent line as thin as .05mm
Cheers Warren
 
adrian

adrian

Flying Squad
warren haywood said:
And there is no adjustment, to draw a fine line with even thickness and density the paint must be quite thick, With tube pens you are advised to thin it with lighter fluid to thin it to allow it to flow which defeats the object of a thin line.
Click to expand...
Actually there is some token for adjustment - but I'll admit not much. The design was specifically designed to run paint neat so that he could get a good colour from a single line. It was original produced because he had a 5" gauge City of Truro with the full GWR lining - the one with half a dozen different lines on a panel.

The line thickness can be adjusted slightly depending how quick you run the pen along the panel - moving it quicker will thin out the line a bit. Thinner lines can be done effectively by putting the standard line down and then putting the base colour in the pen and drawing a new line half overlapping the standard line the result is something half the width of the standard line. It works the other way as well thicker lines can be produced because all you need is to put the edges down and then fill in the middle with a brush. When Duke of Gloucester (12":1ft) was first restored in the mid 80's then it was Bob's son David who lined out the loco with his Dads lining pen!
 
alcazar

alcazar

Guest
So what make of bow pen ought I to look at?

I have one, but it's not a dear one, either Staedtler or Rotring in a compass set.

Warren I note you do corners by hand? Why not use a template and a bow-pen?
 
warren haywood

warren haywood

Western Thunderer
alcazar said:
So what make of bow pen ought I to look at?

I have one, but it's not a dear one, either Staedtler or Rotring in a compass set.

Warren I note you do corners by hand? Why not use a template and a bow-pen?
Click to expand...

Hello Jeff
Probably the best pen is the 135h by Haff, they are a German company and can only be bought direct from them. The problem with cheaper pens is that they are not honed so don't work properly.
www.haff.com

I find it much easier to rule the in the straight lines then put the corners in with a brush, the ruling pen must also stay square to the edge you are drawing against and is very difficult to turn through 90 degrees for the corner. Also remember there are 2 or 3 lines with differing radii so more than one template would be needed, keeping them equally spaced would also be a pain

image.jpg

I have just done this b1 tender this morning which shows what you can achieve with a brush........
And a bit of practice
Warren
 
Susie

Susie

Western Thunderer
I agree with Warren, a ruling pen takes some beating (if it can be!)

When I trained with the Ordnance Survey thirty years ago, all the line work in the field offices was done using Kern pens. We spent a long time learning how to use them to the required standard, but more importantly, how to sharpen them as the drafting film wore the tips down quite quickly.

I havn't seen the Haff pens, but any good, well made pen should do if it is properly sharpened, which I admit isn't easy unless one knows how! I'd stay away from those included in W.H.Smith school geometery sets though.

I'm on the MRC stand at Reading on Saturday: maybe I should bring some pens along and show how to sharpen them?

Susie
 
warren haywood

warren haywood

Western Thunderer
Hi Jeff, the blades on the fine line one are a bit sharp and also too long, this causes them to close up resulting in an uneven line, the ones with the opening blades are ok but don't have hardened tips. I've had my 135h for about ten years now and it is still as it came, ie. I haven't had to do anything to it. At an average of six locos a week that's about 3000 locos not including coaches :)

How to use a bow pen................it's no different to drawing a line with a normal pen and ruler, :)

Susie, I have a nice set of Kerns and also some by Reifler, the compass pens are excellent.

I will also be at Reading, find me around Finescalebrass brass stand or with Dave and Liz at Cromford Designs and say hello if you are going
Warren
 
warren haywood

warren haywood

Western Thunderer
The Brit is almost ready for some paint, really enjoyed this one, nice fit of parts and captures the look well


image.jpg


Ive also built this Sidelines LMS kitchen car. I will be demonstrating at Cleckheaton this year and thought I had better have a loco and a coach on display. The livery is going to be the fully lined out period 1 style with the gold edged either side with vermillion and black.




image.jpg


I have made a start on the gold, and as the coach is of steel construction there is no paneling so I will have to carefully mark out the lining.........what have I let myself in for :)



image.jpg


And a cruel close up, not too worried about the blobs as the vermillion will cover this!, hopefully :)




image.jpg


Next I will do the panels at window height

Warren
 
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