Website Paul Bartlett's Wagon Photos - galleries restricted

AJC

AJC

Western Thunderer
You may be interested to note that Paul appears to have made access to pictures on his galleries (at least, all those I've tried this morning) password protected. UPDATE - no longer, but see below:


The reason may be divined from this post 'over there':

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/in...hornby-2015-announcements-now-made/?p=1705346

I've made some of my collections thumbnail only as, once again, Hornby are using my photos for some of their wagons without even paying a 50p download fee. I am sorry if this causes a modeller a problem but I am very tired of their attitude.

Paul
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If this is a permanent loss, and I sincerely hope that it is not, since research and modelling of all kinds of rolling stock will be much, much harder and, in some cases all but impossible.

As someone who researches for a living, this kind of attitude among commercial consumers of research is all too prevalent: basic research ethics are readily understood and paying a small amount for a commercial return is far from unreasonable. It appears Hornby (who have form on this) may yet deprive the wider modelling community of a key tool.

Best wishes

Adam
 
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oldravendale

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
I wonder whether Paul has said anything go Hornby, or if he's had a previous history with them and knows the response he'll get. It'd be interesting to know how he knows they used his photos. Either way it's a real loss to us if we can't get easy access to his material.

Of course, the way to stop this is to stop buying Hornby products, but then again, pigs might fly.

I don't model OO but have been told that Oxford Diecast have introduced an Adams Radial and so has Hornby. Is this a spoiling tactic by an established company on a new contender?

All in all this looks more like the dog eat dog commercial world from which I retired four or five years ago. I admire most of what Hornby have done, but to plagiarise information without acknowledgement or to try to destroy another company's market is not fair play. Since when was there fair play in business, though?

Brian
 
AJC

AJC

Western Thunderer
Well if lettering styles and numbers for a particular type of wagon shown on Paul Bartlett's galleries happen to match something Hornby (or Bachmann, for example) produce then it's fairly apparent where they got them from. I would post some links to examples (BR standard brakevans, as it happens) but these galleries are password access only at present.

It's not exactly plagiarism, but if you are going to use this data to create a paint scheme to apply to a model on which you hope to make a commercial return then 50p for a download is extremely small beer indeed and an acknowledgement disclosing that in the product description would be good manners and would cost nowt. Paying a commercial fee for the privilege would be the ideal - and normal for photo libraries, crown copyright material in The National Archives, the British Library, for example - but in the circumstances the basic images are available to view online free of charge this is slightly harder to enforce.

Adam

PS - Steph - Oxford Diecast is not associated with Hornby though Corgi, as you say, is.
 
Pugsley

Pugsley

Western Thunderer
That is such a shame, but I can understand why Paul has done it. I can't believe that a large company like Hornby wouldn't have the decency to pay, at the very least, a 50p download fee, if not more for using the pictures for commercial purposes.
 
AJC

AJC

Western Thunderer
Pugsley said:
That is such a shame, but I can understand why Paul has done it. I can't believe that a large company like Hornby wouldn't have the decency to pay, at the very least, a 50p download fee, if not more for using the pictures for commercial purposes.
Click to expand...

Based on my experience (and that of several friends and colleagues) with various media and publishing concerns and moderately well-known individuals in my day job I have no trouble in believing this, sadly.

Adam
 
Pugsley

Pugsley

Western Thunderer
I suppose it's inevitable - if there's a good thing going on, at some point someone will come along and spoil it!
 
oldravendale

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Has anyone considered a letter to Hornby's MD? I'd be prepared to do it but would need some sort of incontrovertible proof. In fact I fear they'd say they got the info from somewhere else - what about HMRS or Roger Carpenter - both of those sell photos commercially, and there are plenty of others.

Regrettably this is not new. Steph will remember a conversation with a highly respected kit manufacturer at St Albans many years ago who was highly critical about "another manufacturer" who had "copied" one of his kits. As we got to know him better he confided in us who it was he considered responsible - and it was another well respected manufacturer. Both were excellent kit manufacturers, both highly respected and one still with us now. In fact there was little actual "proof", but a number of coincidences.

Regrettably I think Paul might be risking charges of slander unless he has absolute proof - and maybe he has.

Brian
 
H

hrmspaul

Western Thunderer
Some fair comments. I made a mistake with the blocking of all pages last night and as mentioned above I have corrected this. I had hoped that the thumbnails would remain visible for the brake vans and hoppers but it doesn't work like that.

I have given up counting how many of the brake vans happen to have the same number and finish as my photos. Unlike Bachmann (which several of us work with regularly) Hornby appear to use private consultants to produce the historical information their models are based on. I did have some contact with Kohler because they suggested that the Midland Tar Distillers tank was a pre WW2 era whereas I took it from a train hauled by a 25kv loco at Watford!

At least the tax man has accepted that it cost a small fortune (And a huge amount of time) to take these photos and make them available. What is most noticeable is the smaller the company the more generous they are with saying thank you.

I am thinking of giving up, my scanner won't do colour anymore and I wouldn't mind doing a little modelling for the first time in 15 years. On the other hand it was pointless taking them if they aren't used by anyone.

Paul
 
Simon

Simon

Flying Squad
Whatever happens Paul, thank you very much for all the effort you have put into making your superb and vast collection of photographs and associated information available to us all on the Internet over the last however many years it has been.

As others have noted, it is a fantastic resource and one of the very best destinations there is on the Web for us enthusiasts.

Likewise your articles on wagons in MRC all those years ago, my 1/32 "lowfit" model was built straight from the plan and information in your excellent article on the type.

Simon
 
SimonT

SimonT

Western Thunderer
Paul,
I am sorry to hear of the troubles. As an individual user of your photo's, can I just record my thanks. The Coil T would never have been designed and built, and in service on the layout, without your photos to amplify the information on the drawings. And you certainly have the only photos of the Coil F cradles. Thank you.

Simon
 
Heather Kay

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
I'm not sure if this is relevant, but I was approached by a Hornby "researcher" a short while ago. They were wondering where I got certain information about a coach interior from, so I told them to go and read the same books I did.

There's probably no mileage in naming and shaming as far as Paul's resources are concerned. His archives are a wonderful resource, and it would be a shame for one commercial player to spoil that. I guess it's down to Paul whether he approaches the manufacturer at higher levels to sort the issue out, but I certainly hope it can be resolved in a way that works for all parties.

If Paul can prove his images have been used without being paid for or credited, then perhaps the greater railway modelling world might be able to add their voices in his support. Until such proof can be shown, it's probably best to remain concerned but quiet.
 
oldravendale

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Further to my earlier comments a big thanks from me too. I think I have all your books about post '48/pre '68 wagons and use them constantly. Your web site is a further invaluable source which I used for the LMS short GUV (subject of one of my threads and another to build as a replacement for the one which bubbled so badly due to inappropriate use of the solvent cement). Frankly you've done so much for the modelling and researching fraternity I reckon it's about time you did some modelling - as long as you show us your results on WT!

One other thought with regard to your unpublished photos, and I'll be amazed if you've not already done this, please for the sake of future modellers, if for no other reason, ensure they are lodged safely. Their intellectual value can only increase as the years roll by.

My comment about contacting Hornby is a genuine one. However, I need to be absolutely certain abut the origin of the material they used before I go in to bat - I was caught out once before by a morally strong case which rather fell apart when I spoke to one of the perpetrators. I'm sure the case was justified but the defence was all lined up so all I received for my efforts was a bloody nose.

Brian
 
Dog Star

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Martin,

Very nice models. I like the spillage from the filler... surprised that I can read the "No Naked Lights" notice. Please tell us more about how you made the models, maybe not on this topic though.
 
H

hrmspaul

Western Thunderer
oldravendale said:
Further to my earlier comments a big thanks from me too. I think I have all your books about post '48/pre '68 wagons and use them constantly. Your web site is a further invaluable source which I used for the LMS short GUV (subject of one of my threads and another to build as a replacement for the one which bubbled so badly due to inappropriate use of the solvent cement). Frankly you've done so much for the modelling and researching fraternity I reckon it's about time you did some modelling - as long as you show us your results on WT!


Brian
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Brian Sorry but I don't understand the reference to my books. I have only had the time to be involved with one book, and that was back in 1983.

Paul Bartlett
PS my modelling - I have done some sitting on Maldivian beaches - is not of suitable standard for this site.
 
AJC

AJC

Western Thunderer
Brian - are you perhaps conflating Paul with David Larkin? He's certainly penned several books drawing upon his pictures and research.

Adam
 
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