Stanier 8F in S7

Discussion in 'S7 Group' started by DavidinAus, 8 February 2014.

  1. DavidinAus

    DavidinAus Western Thunderer

    I'm looking for advice or hints as to how I could go about building an MOK kit which I've had for over a decade on my shelves.
    As an aside, this seems to be a common situation amongst railway modellers: we see a kit we'd really like to build, buy it, but then don't have time to make it for years. A little while ago I told myself I had to stop buying more kits until I had built the ones I already had on the shelves! Perhaps I could even use the money I saved to do the already-purchased products better? It has taken me a couple of years to get to the stage of only having one kit left - for the Stanier 8F. So, after building nothing longer than an 0-4-0 before, I have decided to try a 2-8-0, with near-scale dimension frames.

    I sent a request for advice to the old S7 forum just after Christmas and it's only just appeared. It obviously takes a long time from Australia ..... However I now realise that this forum is where more action takes place.

    After waiting a while I tried another track: I contacted Dave Sharp (who runs MOK). He has been amazingly, wonderfully, helpful. In fact he is doing some special etches to adapt his 8F kit to Scale 7 ! We (well mostly him of course) have been working on this for a little while, but don't know how well it will work as yet. Basically my request of him has been to set the outside frame width at 29mm (I think 30mm is the perfectly correct width, but Dave and I concluded that it was not realistic to try to construct the model using that dimension). The layout of the custom etch that he has suggested would re-make the central frame stretchers (if that's what all the parts which go between the two vertical frames are called), the motion brackets and the cylinder parts.

    At the moment we don't know if this is going to work, especially with an eight-coupled locomotive. However my reasoning was a little like this: I gather the MOK Ivatt S7 kit uses 29mm frames, and the 8 wheels rather than six will actually need less sideways movement on the inner axles, as the two inner axles are not at the mid point between the outer axles.

    I intend to make it with Slaters wheels, and get them altered to S7 profile; I don't know how I could obtain anything else, anyway. I'm probably going to use split-axles if I can learn how to do this (can anyone point me to a good article on how to do this with Slaters wheels?). However I could try the "American" method of loco and tender pickups on opposite sides, or even go for radio control. The last of these is attractive, but I know nothing of it as yet, and am going into (for me) the unknown anyway, as this is my first non-tank engine as well as first with more than 4 coupled wheels! Which way to go?

    I had been thinking of an RG7 motor, but having seen some posts on WT, perhaps I should go for an ABC Mini-7 gearbox and a different motor. What do WT readers recommend? - I've saved money not buying that Lankykits bogie box van, those nice JustLikeTheRealThing wagons, that LNWR G2 kit I liked the look of, etc.

    If it works, I hope this will be another kit that Scale Seven Group members will buy, for Dave Sharp's sake: support from him and others like him is what S7 needs, in my opinion.

    Any advice gratefully received.

    David C
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  2. Dikitriki

    Dikitriki Flying Squad

    Hi David

    Nice to see you aboard here - you've come to the right place!

    We can answer all your questions between us. Split axle Slater's wheels are used by a number here, there are at least 2 of us who have built the MOK 8F, albeit to finescale, and plenty of threads for you to wander through of relevance.

    The kit is designed for an in-line RG7 (which I used) which is fine, but if I was doing it now, I would use the ABC equivalent of an in-line RG7.

    I'm out of action for the rest of the day working on my layout with my mates, so I can't be more helpful now, but it no-one steps in in the meantime, I'll point out a few threads tonight.

    Here's mine awaiting final detailing and painting.


    It's a fantastic kit, one of the very best available.


  3. 7mmMick

    7mmMick Western Thunderer

    Hi David,

    Great to see you here and I really like the sounds of your project. All I can do is echo what Richard has already said really, have a good look round and there will be loads and loads to inspire you (although not my stuff as I haven't even been near the bench in months :))). I totally agree with your thoughts about S7 modellers supporting traders and the more it happens the more will become avaliable. It would be great to see more of your work and hear about current projects and future plans etc. And of course the start of your 8F build,

    ATB Mick :thumbs:
  4. adrian

    adrian Flying Squad


    Glad you've found us, as mentioned on the e-list I too have a MOK 8F in a box waiting to be built to S7 so will be following closely.

    I'm using a JLTRT 3F as a test bed for a few ideas on converting kits to S7

    So I could iron out any problems before the 8F because that's one I want to get right to do justice to the kit. I'm still in the research stage for the 8F - I have the two Wild Swan loco profiles and now need to start sourcing some good quality photo's of the specific loco I want to model. Transport Treasury is my usual first port of call.
  5. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Welcome, double welcome actually, another 8F build!

    I've looked at the MoK and have held back due to the lack of S7 spacing and had/have/am considering either a scratch build or etch assisted scratch build in the near future (it was a close run thing between the 8F, Black 5, Duchess and Class 66 for my next CAD foray, the latter won but may easily be usurped by either of the former LOL)

    I've scratch built my BR Standard 5 to 29.4mm frames, 30mm are perfectly possible and Jon of this parish has some really nice 30mm framed tank engines and they run through B7 points with ease and still have a marginal flex on side play, accepted the wheel base is shorter than the 8F.

    If your opting for 29mm frames then you will have little or no issue with 6' curves and B7 points, providing you follow 1:1 ROW and gauge widen where appropriate. The Standard 5 has a wheel base of 108mm, the 8F around 120mm so I'd expect zero issues on the wheel base front.

    Regarding sideplay, your correct the intermediates are not the centre of the wheel base, but are the centre of the fixed wheel base, which I understand is what counts the most. Personally I'd have zero side play on the leading axle and possible the first intermediate, then a fraction on the second intermediate and finally the most on the trailing axle.

    Backing up the above the Wild Swan books are mandatory, additionally The Power of the 8Fs....if you can find a copy would help, also Bradford and Barton produced a book on the Stanier 8F and it has a really good quality full page high angle looking down photo showing frames being constructed at Swindon.

    I'm with Richard on motors, shame to spoil for a ha'p'th of tar.
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  6. 40126

    40126 Western Thunderer

    Welcome David :thumbs:

    Steve :cool:
  7. Jordan

    Jordan Mid-Western Thunderer

    Welcome aboard!! As I'm in the Bodger's Corner at the Back of the Class I can't actually help with advice, except that doing split axles has been demonstrated with photos on this Forum, but might be within a Diesel-building-thread, so don't restrict your searches to steam-builds. ;)
  8. eastsidepilot

    eastsidepilot Western Thunderer

    Stanier 8F.jpg 8F.jpg Welcome David,
    Converting F/S kits to S7 isn't all ways as bad as it may seem, I have built a few, and your dimension of 29mm o/a frames usually about right especially when you consider the type of axle bearings and hornblocks being used which can affect this dimension as they sometimes stand proud of the outside of the frames, i.e. Slater's insulated bearings.
    If you have the kit designer on your side then most of your battle is won if he is supplying the necessary parts to build to S7.
    Frame spacer material is available from the S7 stores in different widths to allow for various thicknesses in frame material as are split axles of the telescopic kind for use with cast wheels which may be available from Walsall Model Industries if you choose that route. Cast wheels would have to be turned and profiling to S7 for these and Slater's wheels is available here if not down under:thumbs:
    Slater's wheels can be used with split axle current collection, there are various methods of insulating the axles used for these wheels but you will have to use an insulated axle bearing or hornblock.

    As for motor/gearbox set up then you can't go wrong with an ABC unit and choice of motor.

    ATB, Col.
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  9. Steph Dale

    Steph Dale Western Thunderer

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  10. DavidinAus

    DavidinAus Western Thunderer

    Thank you for all the replies.
    My ideas are getting clearer:
    I am going to use Slaters wheels (I can't do lathe work myself, and the only alternatives that I can find are Walsall wheels, and they look like too much work for me to ask someone else to do for me). I will "short out" the rims to the central hubs (as in Steph Dale's videos), How do I solder the wire to the steel out rim though? How do I pick up the current, though? Solder pickup wires to the bearings? What bearings to use? I have ordered some Slaters insulated bearings (7921) and am hoping that these will fit the hornguides (correct name?) from the MOK kit. They look like blocks of plastic with a brass insert to act as bearing, so presumably current can be collected from the brass insert.
    I am assuming that I will have to be very careful with brake shoes shorting across from the wheel-rims to the frames. Or the coupling/connecting rods and valve gear.
    I think the majority opinion is that 29mm is a good frame-outside-width to choose, so I will be happy with that.
    I'm going to order an in-line ABC Mini-7 gearbox. Does anyone have advice to give about which motor to use?
    Stumpytrain likes this.
  11. Steph Dale

    Steph Dale Western Thunderer

    The simple answer is 'Yes'.
    Those bearings will fit the guides in the kit (they may need trimming for height though). Pick up by running wires from the bearing shells in the nylon. And yes, look out for shorting across the chassis, although with the chassis itself electrically neutral it will be much less of a problem than you might imagine.
    The wheels can be shorted by soldering a wire down the back of a spoke, use a decent electrical solder, clean iron and plenty of flux and you should be okay when soldering to the rim.
    For a motor I can't imagine anything more than a Canon 1833 would be necessary, but others here can advise on what they've used, I've not built an 8F.
  12. eastsidepilot

    eastsidepilot Western Thunderer

    With regard to brake gear shorting out, if you are using a metal brake shoe, cast or etch, it is possible to line the shoe with very thin plastic micro-strip fixed with superglue. Alternatively I think Slater's list plastic brake shoes that might be suitable there may be other's on the market, but I'm not sure.

  13. SteadyRed

    SteadyRed Western Thunderer

    I think Dave Sharp actually lists plastic brake shoes on his website

  14. Stumpytrain

    Stumpytrain Active Member

  15. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    I've cast small items using Plasticene for the mould and Devcon 5 minute epoxy. Worked fine!

    Slaters make plastic brake shoes - two types I think.

  16. SteadyRed

    SteadyRed Western Thunderer

    Just noticed this on the MOK website:

    "For the attention of Scale 7 modellers: A conversion etch for the 8F loco chassis, to replace all etched chassis components that are affected, including new frame spreaders, cylinder etches and expansion link brackets, and to produce a 29mm o/a chassis width, will be available soon at a cost of £18.50 + p&p."

    Just need S7 wheels now ;)

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  17. SimonT

    SimonT Western Thunderer

    Hope that Dave does the same for the 9F.
  18. SteadyRed

    SteadyRed Western Thunderer

    I have my name on the list for a 9F.

    Being new to railway modelling , I really shouldn't even think about S7 but looking at MOK & MMP kits I feel that S7 is the gauge these kits deserve.

    Now where is the S7 Group membership form.

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  19. eastsidepilot

    eastsidepilot Western Thunderer

    Why would being new to railway modelling make you not think about S7 ?:), it's just one of a number of modelling standards, it's no more difficult to work in S7 than F/S.
    In fact I have found that when scratch building F/S is more of a pain, especially when mating chassis's to footplates:rolleyes:
    I can send you a form if you'd like one Dave:thumbs:

    ATB, Col.
  20. adrian

    adrian Flying Squad

    Thanks for that, and thanks to David C who I presume was the chief instigator.:thumbs:

    I've just put my name down for a set.