Stanier 8F in S7

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
David,
On my MOK Q1 I modified the tender frame to take sprung units; Slaters insulated version unfortunately no longer available.
If you have a look at those links I posted you'll see a simple way of insulating a main chassis bearing using double-sided copper clad. This should work if you want to keep the existing tender compensation.
Steph
 

John D

Western Thunderer
I've always used a thin layer of Plastikard between the top of the chassis unit and the underside of the tender body, the former being attached to the latter with nylon M3 bolts. You have to make sure that the ends of the chassis frames are not up against the drag/bufferbeams and the usual insulated drawbar is provided.........otherwise no shorts between buffers,couplings or whatever.....
 

DavidinAus

Western Thunderer
Having looked at the entries on this thread above, I have decided to alter my plans. I have listened to what mickoo said, and will have all the pickups on the tender. Using Steph's type 3 split axles < http://www.euram-online.co.uk/tips/splitaxle/splitaxle3.htm > and the way of isolating the bearings from the frames (lower half of < http://www.euram-online.co.uk/tips/splitaxle/splitaxle2.htm >) I could have a low-friction, low maintenance, reliable pickup from the six-wheel tender.

Importantly for me this means that I can build the locomotive exactly as the kit intends, without modification, and those special ScaleSeven driving wheels [which haven't arrived yet, but I presume are going to be beautiful ....] don't need to be modified to connect the rims to the centres electrically.

I have some double-sided circuitboard for the bearings, which will make connection to the motor circuit easy as well. The increase in wheelset back-to-back measurement in ScaleSeven (29.0 to 31.2 m) should work in my favour to allow the circuitboard (about 1.2mm thickness) to be put on the outside of the chassis parts holding the bearings without too much trouble. Having spent an hour looking through the instructions and the late David Jenkinson's article on making this kit, I think it should work OK.

The MOK kit even came with a correction etch for the relevant parts, which means that I can practice doing Steph's modification on the uncorrected parts.

Clearly, I will let you know.

David
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
David, I simply used the new form of Slaters insulated bearings on my A1 tender.

To save you wading through my long and convoluted thread, I'll post the relevant photos here if you don't mind and some notes.
IMG_4317a.JPG

View from above showing slots cut in the inner frames and the CSB wire running over the top of the bearings, I know it's not the accepted pin point fulcrum points but it works, rather well surprisingly.

IMG_4318a.JPG

View from below, the objective of the trial exercise was simply to get the easiest and simplest form of pick up and suspension I could.

IMG_4579b.JPG

Next a strip of double sided copper clad was added, on the lower surface it's soldered to the brake hanger rods, small holes were drilled and the cable from the insulated horn blocks fed through and soldered on top. At the moment I am not running split axles so only two axles are live on each side, as noted above it's all trying to keep it simple, if I have problems then I'll employ split axles, but if it all works fine then I don't need split axles and that's a task saved.

IMG_4580b.JPG

View from below, don't worry about the soldered tab top left, that's my mistake in tinning for the brake rod fixing, the cable is still insulated as it passes through that area to be soldered on top.

IMG_4581b.JPG

Close up of the insulated bearing and the pig tail for the cable, it's quite a firm cable so the bends allow it to flex easier with the suspension, you can just see the epoxy glue bonding the cable to the bearing housing. You can also see the thin slot in the rear of the wheel with wire shorting rim to axle, this was then filled with 2 part epoxy and sanded smooth. I used a slitting disc to knick the rim and hub and a scrawker to gouge the plastic wheel, the slitting disc tended to melt the plastic and depth control was....uncomfortable;)

The LNER tenders have deep flat external side frames so hide the CSB wire easily, Stanier and Fowler tenders have large oval cut outs so a CSB wire running across the bearing tops will show through the openings. In this case you may need to elevate the CSB wire clear of the opening, on the Fowler crab I simply added small hand rail knobs to push the CSB fulcrum clear of the openings.

IMG_8406.jpg

IMG_8408.jpg

Close up of hand rail knob, simply drill a small hole into the bearing and fix with super glue, you could drill deep enough so that the hand rail knob goes into the brass bearing, not sure how you would solder it though, might be a bit tricky getting in and out fast enough to not melt the plastic insulation, then you'd need to insulate the CSB fixed points...in my case small 0.5 mm tube and collect your pick up that way.

Overall the system seems to work well, though for some odd reason, the A1 doesn't roll as well as the Fowler tender, despite the bearings being reamed out to 4.8 mm and neither are lubricated, I think the Slaters blocks could be thinned as well, which I did on the Fowler tender as they can be seen underneath from low angles.

Hope that helps.
 
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Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Mick,
They're not the new ones, just the 'insulated square bearings' item 7961. The new hornguides are 7960c (IIRC) and have a glass-filed nylon guide with a square brass bearing.
Unfortunately the MOK kits don't seem to have a true inside frame (my Q1 certainly doesn't) so fitting bearings and springs the way you have might be very tricky.
Steph
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Steph, that's right they are 7961, I thought the others with the plastic horn guide and brass slotted bearing 7960 had been discontinued? I've got 19 of the (7960) bleedin useless things in these two kits I just bought, plus a pack of six where I just used the brass bearings non insulated style.

I've no experience of MOK....yet;) but yes, my method will not suit all applications.
 

Scale7JB

Western Thunderer
Mick, are the 'bleeding useless things' the plastic horn guides, or the square brass bearings...?

I'll have the brass bearings off you if they're useless to you...?!

JB.
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Mick,
7960a, b, c are different products...
7960a are good, let down by the instructions. I'm much less fussed about the
other two.
Steph
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Mick, are the 'bleeding useless things' the plastic horn guides, or the square brass bearings...?

I'll have the brass bearings off you if they're useless to you...?!

JB.
All of it, just can't get on with them, I'm obviously doing something wrong, but really have no patience or time to work out how to do it right when other easier methods are available, I.E trying to fix the plastic guides to brass chassis.

I presume you mean these bits
Image1.jpg

Your welcome to them, drop me a PM with your address and I'll post them to you next week :thumbs:
 

DavidinAus

Western Thunderer
OK Next problem I'm afraid.
The Slaters Wheelset has arrived, and very nice it looks too.

Small Slaters S7 8F wheels.JPG

They come with an innovation (to me) from Slaters: crankpins which can be screwed into a boss set on the crank.
However for wheels on an S7 version of the MOK kit, they create a problem, illustrated in this picture:

Small Crosshead and S7 8F wheels.JPG

The crankpins are clearly too long in this case, and their rotation will be obstructed by the crosshead and slidebars.
Now I am familiar with this problem from when I widened the frames and cylinders, etc., for my S7 Industrial Garratt, and actually this doesn't look quite as bad as that one did. HoweverI will need to shorten the special crankpins made by Slaters (if you look closely I will need to cut them back to move a bit more that the threaded part of the pin), and then I will need somehow to reproduce a thread on the end of what remains. I have never done this before, and am unsure how to proceed: help, please!
With the old Slaters system it would have been easy, but here the crankins are completely different. Here is a picture of the longer pin used for the connecting rod wheel:
Slaters crankpin.JPG

The part threaded to go into the boss in the wheel I assume is 10BA (it is 1.6mm outside diameter). The smooth part of the pin, to go inside the coupling rod and connecting rod bushes) is also 1.6mm O/D, but the retaining nut screw-thread is smaller. I assume that it is 12BA (it is 1.2mm O/D).
I do not own a lathe. If I shorten the crankpin to a little less than the current length of smooth metal I will then need to put a short length of thread onto it in order to retain the nut. Any ideas as to how can I reduce the pin O/D and then thread it for the 12 BA nut?

Thanks

David
 

Pugsley

Western Thunderer
Put the pin in a drill and turn it down with a file? You'll then need to obtain a 12BA die to reinstate the thread.
 

Dikitriki

Flying Squad
Nice though the crankpins are, you could dispense with them on the first 2 axles and use a 10 BA bolt through the back of the wheel/washer/reversed threaded top hat bearing.

Given what they have to do, I wouldn't like to adjust them without using a lathe.

Richard
 

OzzyO

Western Thunderer
Hello David,

the L.M.S. had the same problem at the front end on most of their locos and used a flush fitting nut like this one in the photo (Copy right remains with the owner)
post-6751-126721170606_thumb.jpg
I know it's not an 8F, but checking my photos I don't have one showing the front crank-pin.

So using a reversed Slater's crank-pin bush tapped 10BA is your best option.

What does the new crank pin look like for the driven wheel (the one with the con rod on) look like?

OzzyO.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
The 8F has the exact same arrangement as the photo above, I.E. a flush fitting nut, it also has the same nut arrangement on the first intermediate axle as well to clear the connecting rod.
 

Railwaymaniac

Western Thunderer
David;

It's probably a pretty heretical thought, but how about abandoning the Slaters crank pin system entirely and going for those available from Derek Mundy?
I've used them in the past for exactly this situation (and indeed the look of the things) - they work very well.

He doesn't have a website, but you can contact him by email at derekmundysignals@tiscali.co.uk
No connection, just a satisfied customer...

Ian
 
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