Stanier 8F in S7

adrian

Flying Squad
They come with an innovation (to me) from Slaters: crankpins which can be screwed into a boss set on the crank.
I stand to be corrected but I think this arrangement is unique to the Scale7 group wheels from Slaters. The Scale7 wheels have a steel centre and the threaded steel bush for the crankpin. As far as I'm aware then I think the standard fine scale wheels from Slaters will have a brass centre axle bush and no steel bush for the crankpin.
 

OzzyO

Western Thunderer
Knowing the steel Slater's uses after a few weeks you won't have to worry about the wheels coming off the axles then.
 

adrian

Flying Squad
Knowing the steel Slater's uses after a few weeks you won't have to worry about the wheels coming off the axles then.
Well I have had the wheels for a Jinty, 4MT and a 3F for a couple of years now and I'm happy to report that I've had no such problems at all with corrosion.
 

OzzyO

Western Thunderer
Well I have had the wheels for a Jinty, 4MT and a 3F for a couple of years now and I'm happy to report that I've had no such problems at all with corrosion.

To be honest I can't say that I've had that much of a problem with the steel rusting, but I've had some with rusting from Slater's as new items.
 

demu1037

Western Thunderer
OK Next problem I'm afraid.
The Slaters Wheelset has arrived, and very nice it looks too.

View attachment 40764

They come with an innovation (to me) from Slaters: crankpins which can be screwed into a boss set on the crank.
However for wheels on an S7 version of the MOK kit, they create a problem, illustrated in this picture:

View attachment 40766

The crankpins are clearly too long in this case, and their rotation will be obstructed by the crosshead and slidebars.
Now I am familiar with this problem from when I widened the frames and cylinders, etc., for my S7 Industrial Garratt, and actually this doesn't look quite as bad as that one did. HoweverI will need to shorten the special crankpins made by Slaters (if you look closely I will need to cut them back to move a bit more that the threaded part of the pin), and then I will need somehow to reproduce a thread on the end of what remains. I have never done this before, and am unsure how to proceed: help, please!
With the old Slaters system it would have been easy, but here the crankins are completely different. Here is a picture of the longer pin used for the connecting rod wheel:
View attachment 40767

The part threaded to go into the boss in the wheel I assume is 10BA (it is 1.6mm outside diameter). The smooth part of the pin, to go inside the coupling rod and connecting rod bushes) is also 1.6mm O/D, but the retaining nut screw-thread is smaller. I assume that it is 12BA (it is 1.2mm O/D).
I do not own a lathe. If I shorten the crankpin to a little less than the current length of smooth metal I will then need to put a short length of thread onto it in order to retain the nut. Any ideas as to how can I reduce the pin O/D and then thread it for the 12 BA nut?

Thanks

David


Hi David,

One simple way (without the need for a lathe) would be to use the threaded bushes from http://www.gladiatormodels.com/index.php/threaded_crankpin_bushes/?k=:21:: to create a shouldered screw. They are tapped 10BA, as per the wheel inserts. Make a 10ba stud (with a slot in one end), trim the bush to rod thickness (see note below re recess into rod) and assemble.

IMG_2686a.jpg

You will probably have to recess the flange in the rod to give clearance (do this before trimming the bush!)

IMG_2684a.jpg

Dikitriki has illustrated this process with one of his builds (forget which, I was asleep at the time), but with the S7 wheel there's the advantage of the threaded insert. You could even drill out/counter sink the end of the bush for better effect


Regards

Andy
 

DavidinAus

Western Thunderer
Thanks for the above advice, especially Steph and Andy.

After thinking about what you said, below is my first plan [I suspect that this is destined only to be the first plan]. The picture shows the frames with wheels in place. The front end is on the left. I am going to take advantage of the special construction of the S7 wheels, with the 10BA tapped holes for the crankpins.

Coupling rods and crankpins 02.jpg

I am lucky in having my friend in Melbourne Richard Davidson who has done some work on his lathe for me. Below the frames in the picture are the special crankpins which Richard has made for me. They are basically the same as what Steph has made in his thread above, but made in one piece by Richard.
My illustration shows how I hope to arrange the crankpins. From the front: axles one and two have the special crankpins in place. Axle one the pin is part-way through the coupling rod. Axle two has the crankpin all the way home. Axle three and four have the Slaters crankpins. The ones for the connecting rod wheels are longer, and will take two brass bushes on top of each other, through the coupling and connecting rods. The final axle will have a standard Slaters crankpin and bush.
Clearances will remain extremely tight at the front end. I intend to try the front crankpin fitting direct to the wheel without a washer. The boss on the coupling rod is slightly thicker than the body of the rod itself, so as it goes round it should be clear of the central wheel boss. The second wheel will need a washer, though: the articulation of the coupling rod will catch on the central wheel boss otherwise. By the third axle, fortunately, the clearances should be less critical. So the flat portion of the Slaters crankpin, acting as a washer, will be less critical.

Let's hope it all works ....

David
 

Scale7JB

Western Thunderer
Hi David,

Have you thought about widening the cylinders? Even a mil extra width would work wonders on the gap, and it's literally a two minute job..

JB.
 

DavidinAus

Western Thunderer
It's been a while, but I thought readers might like an update.

Whilst waiting for parts needed for the main locomotive to come from the UK, I have started on the tender. The model is designed to have a "compensation" mechanism which allows the rear two axles to move up and down independently. The front axle is fixed. This is shown in the picture below.

Small Tender compensation mech 1.jpg

There are two inner plates which rock about the bar which can be seen crossing between the frames. On each plate there are going to be two "loose links" which carry the axle bearings, and allow the axles to move at small angles in the plane perpendicular to the axis along the tender. The loose links are not shown in the picture.

These loose links I have had to modify anyway, to take double-sided circuit board, as part of the adaptation which will allow the wheels to be isolated from the frame, and allow electrical pick-up through a "split-axle" design. Essentially I have decided to use Steph's design, referenced in a previous entry. On the picture above, for the fixed axle at the front of the tender I have already soldered on the circuit board [it is not exactly straight, but this will be unseen and unimportant when the model is complete].

Small Insulated Loose Links.JPG

This picture shows the loose links adapted with circuit board. The left-hand one has the double sided circuit-board soldered to the link. The loose links will have the side parts bent back at right-angles and slid through the slots seen on either side of the bearing holes in the rocker arms seen in the top picture.

The central loose link, seen with the c-b underneath, has had the loose link bored out with a countersink, which then allows the brass bearing to be inserted from the other side, remaining electrically isolated from the surface on the side closer to the camera, which will be in contact with the frame of the tender. This is seen on the right hand loose link.

This way the wheels and axle are isolated from the frames although firmly fixed to the loose links, or main frames in the case of the fixed front axle, seen here.

Small Isolated bearings.jpg

Fortunately S7 wheels have a wider back-to-back measurement than normal Finescale 0-gauge wheels, allowing the insertion of the c-b.

It is all a complex way of allowing the rear two axles to rock independent of each other. I hope it works, with all the modification to take the split-axle pickup method!

Meanwhile the wheels and other items have arrived from England, and I have been able to put the coupling rods, driving wheels and hornblocks all together into the locomotive frames.

Small Wheels and Coupling rods.jpg

I was not looking forward to this stage, actually, because of my previous experiences - two 0-4-0 locomotives and an 0-6-0, all of which I had problems with at this stage. In all three cases the coupled wheels had suffered from a lot of binding as the wheels went around, presumably because the coupling rods had slight different distances between the crankpin holes to the distances between the wheel centres. So the thought of all the adjustments necessary on an 0-8-0, and the enlargement of all the coupling rods crankpin holes was not pleasant.

This kit is in a different league.

I put it all together, turned it over, pushed the frames forward on my desk, and the wheels rotated perfectly. No binding. Even without any additional weight on the frames. MOK clearly have made the kit with perfect dimensional accuracy, although the correctly articulated coupling rods may help also. Whatever it is doesn't really matter - it works!

Look carefully on the picture of the frames and you can see the 14BA nuts to be used to put the keeper plates on, to hold the hornblocks in place. 14BA is small, and MOK suggest 16BA!

David
 

DavidinAus

Western Thunderer
Further to the above ....
I have become a little distracted by the tender, even though I could now get on with the locomotive itself. If you remember, I have decided to try to do split axles on the tender, and run the wires through to the loco. with no pickups on the latter.
Well in converting the tender to S7, some things work well, but it throws up some other problems. According to my micrometer, the inside dimension of the tender outer frame (carrying the buffers, drawbar, etc.) is 39.5-39.75mm. The special Stanier S7 tender wheels are about 37.75mm across the outer surfaces at the rims, but 40.0-40.1 across the central wheel bosses.
So the wheels don't want to go into the frames at all!

Small Wheels for 8F tender 1.jpg

This shows the problem ....
Actually with only 0.6mm (at worst) it is possible to squeeze the inner frame in place:

Small Wheels for 8F tender 2.jpg

However even so there are two problems to deal with: mechanical (resistance to the wheels turning, and allowing the compensation mechanism to work) and electrical (as well as the rims, the central wheel bosses will be "live" in a split-axle scheme, and so must not touch the frame). So how to deal with this best, I ask? What do readers think?
At the moment my favoured answer is to widen the holes seen in the frames, to about 10mm or 11 mm. The holes only real function is to position the whitemetal axleboxes, and I can manage that without this guidance. If I open the holes out then the wheel bosses (which are about 9mm in diameter) would run in the holes, and not touch the frame. Even the wheel movements on the compensation axles would probably be accommodated, even when the wheels rock sideways. I wouldn't fit the whitemetal axleboxes until the very end, after a running trial, so the holes could be enlarged further if need be. The dimension across the outer surface of the frames is 41.5mm or more.

Has anyone got a better idea?

David
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Wouldn't thinning the wheel bosses be an easier solution?
It doesn't need to be a tricky job, I've done it a few times;
Make a hole in some 0.010" brass that the wheel boss can poke through, allowing the brass to touch the front face of the wheel tyre. Grab some coarse emery paper and on a firm backing rub down the front of the boss to the brass. The brass will protect the tyre face and give you a 'stop'.
The countersink in the front of the wheel will almost certainly need deepening, a 5mm version is ideal, but not 100% necessary.
The last thing you may need to do is shorten the square sections of the end of the axles to allow the screw to tighten up on the wheel properly.
Steph
 

DavidinAus

Western Thunderer
Thanks, Steph, but I'm a little unsure about this: I'm not sure what you mean by "rub down the front of the boss to the brass", because the central brass insert already shows on the front of these wheels. Perhaps it is a characteristic of the S7 wheels, I don't know.
Also, if I thin the wheel bosses I will certainly have to shorten the screw, deepen the countersink in the thinned boss and also cut back the squared end of the axle.
Frankly, it sounds beyond me, whereas enlarging the holes seems relatively straightforward.
Perhaps I'm reluctant to butcher the beautiful wheels, which is silly really because I would certainly be making radical cuts into the frames!

David
 

Len Cattley

Western Thunderer
Hi David, an interesting problem, I have two David Andrews tenders to build in the future in S7. Looking at the tender in the Wild Swan book the out-side of the tender should be 5' 11.5" which equates to 41.71mm, can you tell me how much it is in the kit as I might have to make the frames wider if they are too small. Mind you I think Steph's idea seems to be the best route.
Regards

Len
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Please excuse the question... if you enlarge the hole in the outer frame so that the wheel boss can "sit" in the hole... how will you get the wheels / inner frames into the tender (outer) frame? Or maybe you expect to attach the outer frames to the headstocks after fitting the wheels?

Either way, seems to me that the wheels are going to be trapped - is that OK with you?
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
David,
Aah, apologies for not being clear, rub down until you hit the brass (sheet with hole in it) was what I meant to say. The sheet then acts as a sanding gauge and protects the wheel face.
Steph
 

Len Cattley

Western Thunderer
I also note that the Slaters wheels are to wide at the boss the tread should be 5.6" plus the boss which equates to be 3.208mm wide with out the boss, I will find out how wide the boss should be.

Len
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Slaters wheels are too wide at the boss, simple as that, if your modelling in S7 then you have to accept that you need to take off some of the boss if you have made prototypical frame widths.

I take the boss down to the same width as the tyre, then use a countersink to reinstate the correct depth and then I also use the countersink on the axle end. This produces a uniform taper and also takes a bit off the end to allow the wheel to sit flat and the screw to be tightened up. I used to just take the tip off square but have found it better to just add a counter sink to the axle end, it's not there by design, well not on the axles I have done so far.

On the A1 tender I took off just over 1mm per side, this will allowed for a bit of side play if needed. If you are using split axle pick up then it is important that the hub does not touch the frames so it may pay to open out the hole in the frames if you have not reduced the boss to tyre width.
 

DavidinAus

Western Thunderer
Thank you everyone for the advice.
I will go down Steph's route (and others, but Steph was first!) and thin the bosses (sounds like something from Ed Milliband / Bill Shorten ....).
I'll let you know how it goes.

David
 

DavidinAus

Western Thunderer
Thanks, mickoo, for the insight about Slater's wheels. I had blithely assumed that the S7 Group wheels were dimensionally accurate. Certainly they look extremely good, with the spokes moulded properly (?) at the rear of the wheels as well as the front.
Now, looking at my loco. driving wheels, I realise that the bosses on these are also too thick: they stand 1mm outside the rims (by my measurements they are 4.3mm thick where the remainder of the wheels are 3.3mm).
Even in the Locomotive Profiles books I cannot see any pictures of the tender wheels, but the pictures of the driving wheels (p55 of the first book and p19 of the Supplement) show the bosses to be close to the same width as the tyres. This is very important to me, because potentially if I thin the driving wheel bosses it will give me more room to play with behind the crosshead and other valve gear, where clearances looked seriously tight. The balance weights do stand clear of the rims, so I will have to allow for that. However even half a millimeter on each side would be extremely useful.
So I should thin down the driving wheel bosses also.
Now to do this, after Steph's method of actually thinning the bosses, I will have to re-establish the countersink for the fixing screw. I don't have much by way of precision tools, but I do have a vertically mounted drill. I also have a movable clamp to hold things under the drill. If I put a wheel directly into this clamp still mounted on the axle I can clamp the axle whilst making the wheel exactly at right angles to the drill. Remove the fixing screw and potentially I could deepen the countersink and shorten the axle at the same time
Will this work, I ask?

David
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
In a word 'no'.
You need the axle end to be shorter (even if only by a thou or so) than the wheel face's countersink in order for the screw to tighten and remain tight. The screw must tighten on the wheel, not the axle end.
If you use a 5mm countersink in the wheel the screw will recess just like the original. I've been content to trim the axle ends with a file.
I'm not sure about needing to deepen the threads in the ends of the axles, to do that you'd need a 6BA plug (3rd) tap. I confess I tend to reduce the length of the screws as it's easier.
Steph
 
Top