The Bentall Coach (a private coach in the 1890s)

[Osgood]

As well as the Picnic Saloon Trust's LNWR coach at Quainton Road, a second LNWR Picnic Saloon survives at Royal Deeside Railway - from whose website these plans come from:



See:

The Picnic Saloon Trust

and:

Picnic Saloon

Details of the 1894 LNWR Picnic Saloon refurbishment project.

www.deeside-railway.co.uk

 

[Richard Gawler]

Tony please excuse me while I give my present plan one more iteration before I study the Picnic Saloon.



Something I have overlooked and everyone at WT has been much too polite to say is, the guard was an employee of the railway company and therefore needed to be in a compartment of their own. So I have added a partition for this.

Actually the new partition helps the luggage compartment by making a couple of corners to put things in. I have added a drop-down table (T) where a servant could put the picnic onto its plates, and this table is in line with the door like the example at Quainton Road. They can use the spare chair here too.

The table in the third class compartment has become a cupboard to keep the paraphernalia of travel like extra rugs. Everybody had a hat so there are hooks (H) for these and a space for umbrellas (U) too.

I have removed the communicating door because the servants are now using the luggage space to serve and they are allowed to have their own space. Travelling on the Middy yesterday I realised the sides of a period coach are closer to 3 rather than 6 inches thick so I have redrawn the partitions to suit.

The luggage space is now far too small for the owner’s samples so the coach will be coupled to a fitted flat wagon to carry their latest plough or, in the next decade, a stationary engine or indeed a motor car.

For Robert, the first of the people are here:
https://www.westernthunder.co.uk/threads/women-are-difficult-railway-passengers-1889-to-1907.11160/
so I they will be on the platform not inside the coach unless I can get duplicate figures to modify.

 

[Osgood]

Tony please excuse me while I give my present plan one more iteration before I study the Picnic Saloon.
...

I only added to Mike's suggestion of folding tables by including the diversionary links and drawings in case anyone else fancied taking a quick peek down a picnic saloon rabbit hole along the way - it doesn't lend itself easily, if at all, to the layout you are striving to achieve.

 

[Richard Gawler]

I only added to Mike's suggestion of folding tables by including the diversionary links and drawings in case anyone else fancied taking a quick peek down a picnic saloon rabbit hole along the way - it doesn't lend itself easily, if at all, to the layout you are striving to achieve.

Please pay attention at the back of the class. The picnic saloon is my present project on my layout thread:
The Heybridge Railway, 1889 to 1913

 

[Richard Gawler]

As well as the Picnic Saloon Trust's LNWR coach at Quainton Road, a second LNWR Picnic Saloon survives at Royal Deeside Railway - from whose website these plans come from:

. . .

I notice, the picnic coach is described as being from 1894. This is five years after the The Regulation of the Railways Act of 1889, and yet the end elevation shows a pair of safety chains, and the side elevation shows no brakes at all. I will give my private coach a vacuum brake. None of my locos have the necessary vacuum apparatus but this will at least let it run in a train on another railway.

 

[Osgood]

Just an anomaly it seems of the Wolverton drawings for 31ft1" stock - which show the same underframe with safety chains and no brake detail.
But all had brakes - earliest were continuous chain brake, then vacuum, and no pictures to be seen showing safety chains.
(ref. L&NWR 30Ft1in Six-Wheeled Carriages by Philip Millard, pub. LNWRS - which also contains fully detailed underframe G.A.)

 

[Richard Gawler]

Seems to me your Victorian entrepreneur should not have hastily grabbed the first coach he found at reasonable cost from last weeks edition of Pre-Loved Carriages, but instead done some homework whilst keeping his powder dry.

The layout of compartments and doors on that SDJR brake third does not lend itself easily to conversion - difficult to achieve a long saloon that is most desirable.
A big part of the trouble is the large luggage compartment in the guards area.

I’ve tried a few alterations but none are ideal - would help greatly if the servants could be accommodated in the brake area, then one side of the end compartment could be used for ablutions, the other door being a lobby entrance into the main saloon, but even then the door arrangement in main saloon is inefficient.

A typical late era saloon is shown here:
Bluebell Railway - SER Saloon carriage 172

Interesting to note the servants compartment was later done away with.

What other carriages might offer more flexibility in layout I wonder?

P.S. Can you confirm did he buy an old family saloon, or an old standard coach that he intends converting into one?

I respectfully suggest, Pre-Loved Carriages (just like West and Thunder really) carried a few advertisements for manufacturer's surplus and nearly-new items. The original design of the coach, with just two third class compartments and a huge luggage compartment, had limited usefulness for the S&DJR. Contrary to the known and accepted historical records, construction of these coaches (1888 to 1895) included some overstock. This would help to explain why quite so many examples appear on models of branch lines far-removed from the S&DJR. My entrepeneur bought one of these surplus coaches, which arrived with just its delivery mileage, before arranging the conversion locally

 

[Richard Gawler]

I think I have evolved the design of this coach well enough to build a model. So to wrap things up, here is a colourised drawing I might find in the archives of the Heybridge and Langford Light Railway, placed with a fresh scan of the etched coach side.


It was usual for double doors to be arranged so the left-hand door was the first one to be opened. Therefore the lavatory compartment appears on the opposite side to my previous sketches, to allow the right-hand door to be sealed up.

The date of the drawing is most likely 1892.

 

[Osgood]

That looks good now - a fitting use for one of Highbridge Work's over-run stock sell-off carriages

I had no idea your entrepreneur was none other than EH Bentall of agricultural (and other?) machinery fame, and can't help wondering now if my old No. 533 mill might have once had a journey in that luggage compartment.......

 

[Richard Gawler]

I found three Bentall items in the Food Museum (was the Museum of East Anglian Life) in Stowmarket. But this is the first mill. Might need a site survey to record some particulars

 

[ovener]

I think I have evolved the design of this coach well enough to build a model. So to wrap things up, here is a colourised drawing I might find in the archives of the Heybridge and Langford Light Railway, placed with a fresh scan of the etched coach side.

View attachment 184549
It was usual for double doors to be arranged so the left-hand door was the first one to be opened. Therefore the lavatory compartment appears on the opposite side to my previous sketches, to allow the right-hand door to be sealed up.

The date of the drawing is most likely 1892.

I love that drawing - beautifully done. I think part of the fun of modelling is imaging the stories and making up possible histories.

 

[Les Golledge]

I think I have evolved the design of this coach well enough to build a model. So to wrap things up, here is a colourised drawing I might find in the archives of the Heybridge and Langford Light Railway, placed with a fresh scan of the etched coach side.

View attachment 184549
It was usual for double doors to be arranged so the left-hand door was the first one to be opened. Therefore the lavatory compartment appears on the opposite side to my previous sketches, to allow the right-hand door to be sealed up.

The date of the drawing is most likely 1892.

Hi Richard,

Have you considered swaping the servants & luggage compartments? which would allow the servants to serve all meals required in the first class compartment.
Of course it may not be possible to fit each side in the compartment for luggage.
Regards,

Les.

 

[michael mott]

I have virtually no knowledge about this subject other than a question about the nature of the human interaction between humans so the train or carriage would have to be stopped in order for the servants to interact with the entrepreneurial folk.
Michael

 

[Richard Gawler]

Have you considered swaping the servants & luggage compartments? which would allow the servants to serve all meals required in the first class compartment.
Of course it may not be possible to fit each side in the compartment for luggage.

Hi Les. I have certainly 'considered' doing such a swap, I got as far as printing out scans of the sides and trying some cut and shuts with scissors

But they didn't work out at all. I think, the best interior arrangement would be saloon - lav - luggage - 3rd class - guard, but to do this the S&DJR brake third is the wrong place to start.

Fundamentally, I have got to remember this sort of coach existed to provide a private and exclusive space. This was good for the owner and it also stopped the servants mixing with undesirables. The saloon was more spacious than a standard first class compartment, but offered no special level of comfort. The oil lights and lack of heating were the same for everyone in the whole train.

I think, my suggestion of picnics (post #15) was misguided, this was a 1920s thing not 1890s. After the mass production of the vacuum flask at least. Really, the private coach was for travelling, not feeding let alone entertaining. Even the desk I have shown might be out of place, though I guess even the Victorians had their workaholics. So I don't think it is necessary for the servants to be able to serve a picnic, and the communicating door and passageway from saloon to luggage compartment could be narrower.

 

[Richard Gawler]

Here is a new version of the coach, now based on the 6-wheeled composite from Connoisseur Models.



There is only a certain amount of space inside a 31 x 8 ft coach and at least three of the possible compartments have got to go across from side to side. So, I now have a better saloon and a more useful luggage space but no lavatory. There is access between the two passenger spaces but this is now by way of the luggage area and this approach seems civilised and more useful as well. The compartment for the guard is probably a foot longer than it needs to be but this offers a secure space to carry mails when the coach is running on the Heybridge Railway.

The coach is obviously a conversion, but it is better-looking than the previous proposal. The re-work to the etched sides reduces to panelling over unwanted windows, plus two new picture windows instead of four. I think this would make a better model.

 

[Mike W]

Looks good to me. The railways had their own chamber pots for a reason ....

Mike

 

[simond]

I’m struggling to imagine Mrs Fortescue-Smythe relaxing at pot, in the luggage compartment, with the risk of an unexpected encounter with one of the serving staff, or worse (could it be worse?). Still if you’ve gotta go…

 

[Richard Gawler]

I’m struggling to imagine Mrs Fortescue-Smythe relaxing at pot, in the luggage compartment, with the risk of an unexpected encounter with one of the serving staff, or worse (could it be worse?). Still if you’ve gotta go…

I imagine, the other occupants of the saloon would retire to the luggage compartment in such a delicate situation.

Possibly the single chair is a commode. For the avoidance of doubt, the small circle by the desk represents a waste paper basket.

 

[Osgood]

Well I'd prefer to see a proper wc in there somewhere - think of the long journeys they'll be doing on the mainline.

So - how about the guards compartment reduced in size by one window, with the servants compartment moving one window towards the guards compartment, and with their slightly less wide cupboard (whatever do they want to put in there anyway?) central on the partition allowing access through both side doors and connecting door.
The enlarged luggage area can then surely accommodate a proper wc, with all the privacy that brings.

 

[Richard Gawler]

Well I'd prefer to see a proper wc in there somewhere - think of the long journeys they'll be doing on the mainline.

It seems, a similar discussion between client and coachbuilder took place at the time; and rummaging through the archive, I found this drawing and some notes:



Interpretation of the Notes.

1. Both parties accepted, the guard’s compartment is only used on the Heybridge Railway. The coach couples onto a GER train at Langford and this train is using a GER guard in a GER coach. Therefore this compartment can be much smaller.

2. Many of the journeys on the Heybridge Railway are one-way and the new design provides a recess (b) to let the guard carry a bicycle for their their return journey.

3. The guard does not need lookout windows on the sides because there are no obstructions near the line on the Heybridge Railway and they can simply look out of the droplights in the doors.

4. The lavatory compartment has a maximum width of 3ft 6in at waist level and this dimension matches the size of first class lavatory compartments built by the GER in 1896 - see inset. The width reduces to make a pocket to hold the sliding door.

5. The door to the lavatory compartment opens outwards in keeping with the practice at the time and is hinged on the left to maximise privacy from passengers in the third class compartment.

6. The third class compartment is now rather longer than usual but this allows for an extra window so it is not too gloomy. The extra legroom gives extra space between strangers (servants of the owner and of their customer) and there is room for a card table for playing of dominos and other games of skill.

7. The circulation area outside the third class compartment has space for the servant's hats and coats.

8. The partitions each side of the luggage compartment contain broad, high-level windows to let daylight into the compartment.

9. The rugs and foot warmers previously carried in the cupboard are now placed on overhead racks and below seats. There is no provision for storage of chamber pots.

The other details including the whole of the saloon are unchanged from the previous drawing.