The Bentall Coach (a private coach in the 1890s)

[Richard Gawler]

View attachment 185086

The kit arrived on Saturday but the postman hid it and I found it yesterday afternoon.

The ends have a turnunder as well as the sides. So this is a 31ft body on a nominally 30ft 2in underframe. I am going to keep this underframe. I thought about a kit with plastic sides for a short while because these are easier to do a cut and shut on the panels, but at the end of the day brass gives flush glazing. Also I am having a Brass Phase at the moment, I like the precision and the speed of assembly.

 

[Richard Gawler]

Drawing printed full size. Those Director's armchairs are quite chunky, best drop from three to two. Pencil sharpener representing desk.


I don't know whether the ride in a six-wheeler is more comfortable inside the wheelbase. Because if it is, then my drawing gives the servants a better ride than the owner. I could therefore rearrange the saloon like this. Please does anyone know, would this give a better ride; and thus be more likely to be built?

(The arrangement in the second photo needs a narrower luggage compartment to let the bench clear the door.)

 

[Richard Gawler]

This is my modified method for cleaning small items using a "proportionate" amount of cleaning product.

The 35mm film canister is weighted down with two £1 coins and filled with solution (in this case, IPA) to cover the model. With the canister and model and solvent in place, I added the water into the tank to a level to match the solvent. Then a five-minute u/s cycle with no heating.

I think this gives better degreasing than with the lid fitted onto the canister and the canister bobbing around in the water. A thin-walled glass beaker might be more practical and less likely to float.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Oh dear.....I was expecting to see it full of these....

 

[Richard Gawler]

It does look like a deep fat fryer. I keep it on the cooker hob too.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I don't know whether the ride in a six-wheeler is more comfortable inside the wheelbase. Because if it is, then my drawing gives the servants a better ride than the owner. I could therefore rearrange the saloon like this. Please does anyone know, would this give a better ride; and thus be more likely to be built?

(The arrangement in the second photo needs a narrower luggage compartment to let the bench clear the door.)

I don't know about ride quality but this would largely be dependent on the state of the track and how well the carriage was maintained.

With regards to the long bench seat - if situated at the end of the carriage wouldn't it have matched the width of the carriage to maximise the usage of space?

On finishing the bench seat and chairs I would be inclined to use a single layer of cheap own brand kitchen towel for the buttoned leather/fabric effect. This is what I used for the first class seats in my 7mm SECR (ex LCDR)6w 1st/2nd brake carriage. The antimacassar is made from a piece of toilet tissue.



I know you can hardly see it but I know the first class seats are 'padded'.

 

[Richard Gawler]

Well Dave you have set the bar for me to aim for in my own model, outside as well as inside

In my source kit for the coach, the two first class compartments are next to the luggage compartment, and the third class compartments are at the ends. This is must have been done for a reason, and if the ride quality was much the same throughout the coach then maybe it was quieter inside near the middle and away from the ends. I will guess, having the luggage space next to the first class was for the convenience of the those passengers.

Anyway, to rather avoid your first question about the bench seat I like the spindles under the armrests. So this bench will stay, and I will be able to show off the spindles where they are visible at one end or another.

I hadn't thought of representing buttoned leather for the upholstery. This sounds like something to try with the paper towel on a scrap of styrene. It really does look very good.

 

[Richard Gawler]

With regards to the long bench seat - if situated at the end of the carriage wouldn't it have matched the width of the carriage to maximise the usage of space?

I can justify the reduced width of the bench seat by using the space at the end of it to open up one of the third-class doors:



Closing up the door at the other end makes space for a four-foot desk with a pedestal. Changing the sliding door for a hinged door makes a corner for the office space with better privacy.

This is the first of my designs for the saloon which has felt right to me.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

In my source kit for the coach, the two first class compartments are next to the luggage compartment, and the third class compartments are at the ends. This is must have been done for a reason, and if the ride quality was much the same throughout the coach then maybe it was quieter inside near the middle and away from the ends. I will guess, having the luggage space next to the first class was for the convenience of the those passengers.

Looking at diagrams and photos of old 4w and 6w composites whether it be 1st/2nd, 1st/3rd or 2nd/3rd the higher class compartments were generally located in the centre probably for the reasons you've stated and would be warmer as they would have two outer walls (sides) rather than three unlike the 2nd, 3rd or guards compartments on the outer ends. Obvioulsy this wouldn't apply to a full 1st.

Even early bogie composite carriages had the 1st class located in the centre but companies moved away from this when corridors were introduced. However, 1st class in the centre of the carriage or next to the guards compartment persisted with suburban stock for a while. Like everything, each company had their own layout variations.

My LCDR coach, I think - but will have to re-check, was originally used on boat trains.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Using your latest plan I think the bench seat would be better moved to the centre of the saloon (so you can see the pedestals etc) and the opening door moved to the end. I've annotated your drawing to show what I mean. As it's a private carriage and not in public service the front seat not being in line with the door pillar wouldn't be a problem.

 

[Osgood]

You see, this is why I had suggested a 40ft bogie coach

 

[Richard Gawler]

Version A (Dave)



Version B (Richard)

Dave I have redrawn the plan to suit (version A) and I like your thinking but somehow I prefer my arrangement (B). I think, people like corners to sit in, and (B) builds the seating area out from a corner rather than placing it in the middle of the space and working outwards. (B) is also less symmetrical and very subjectively I think less symmetry is better.

The decision can come late because a working door and a blocked-up door look the same on the model except for the provision of the handle.

 

[Richard Gawler]

You see, this is why I had suggested a 40ft bogie coach

At the end of the day, this has got to look like a private coach for an entrepeneur, not a hand-me-down from a royal family. It has also got to look at home on my very minor railway, set at a time when it would be a full ten years before the neighbouring GER started to build bogie coaches.

When I wrote about trying a 28 ft underframe I was thinking of a rebuild as a four-wheeler but this would be too antiquarian for the task. Sorry but it's got to be a six-wheeler.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Well Dave you have set the bar for me to aim for in my own model, outside as well as inside

Should you be interested - my build of the LCDR coach starts at post #229 in my thread Yorky D's Küchentisch - BR(W) V200..... sorry (not really) Warship

 

[Richard Gawler]

I am having a think about the lighting. I want oil lamps (not gas) to help to emphasise the period. I can provide up to five lamps (because they come in fives from Laurie Griffen) and I am trying to find an arrangement which would technically work and won't look out of place outside.



This is my best effort so far, with the positions of the lamps shown in green. Three of the lamps are in their original positions between the doors of the source coach. Two more straddle the centre of the roof where they provide near-maximum headroom, and one of these services both the lavatory and the vestibule outside it.

In a clerestory coach, oil lamps were placed closer to the outer sides but I don't want my model passengers to bang their heads. So I hope this arrangement looks plausible but of course I welcome fresh ideas. I am enjoying this design process as much as a build.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I've done some tweaking of your latest version to how I think it would have been done.

Add a door between the luggage compartment and lavatory to create a lobby (H) and hinge the servants compartment door outwards. It would appear the servants and lavatory doors would clash but they would both never be open at the same time.

The oil lamps are in red down the centre of the roof as I don't recall seeing photos of early arc roof carriages where the oil pots are offset - but could be wrong. Could always omit the lamp above the luggage compartment but may be necessary so the 'family' can see to traverse to the lavatory at night.

The panel above the servants door would have had a half moon cut into it so the globe would light the servants compartment and the lobby. The lavatory will have had it's own small internal light which would have been ventilated by the lavatory window vent.

For the sake of etiquette and privicy it would have been very unlikely a half moon would have been cut in the panel between the lavatory and lobby.



Hope it helps...... It's an interesting dilemma.

 

[Richard Gawler]

Dave this solves all of my dilemmas

A dedicated lamp inside the lavatory compartment helps the most.

I have looked at all the photos of roofs I can find and I cannot find one example of a coach with oil lamps set off-centre (however logical this might seem here), except beside a clerestory. Apparently, the method of handling the lamps was for someone on the ground to throw them up to someone standing on the roof, who lit them and popped them into place, and vice-versa. There were lots of breakages so they are difficult to find nowadays. Having the lamps in a row would make the task a bit easier (safer?) for the person on the roof.

The external doors to the luggage compartment are solid, no windows or droplights. I had omitted the extra door from luggage compartment to lavatory to let daylight (and oil light) spill through into the luggage compartment from outside the lavatory. If I am allowed to have a lamp in the luggage compartment then the second door makes sense. And I still need only five lamps.



All of the passenger doors except the servants' are hinged on the left and the only clash is servants'/lavatory. The lavatory door moves slightly towards the centre to make space for a wall lamp next to the obscured glass window.

The two internal doors into the luggage compartment are opposite each other in case of a lamp failure, and I have added some flooring: carpet in the saloon, linoleum in the lavatory and bare boards everywhere else. If I can make a handrail I can make a towel rail so I've drawn this in too.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Just thought - I don't recall lavatory doors on trains opening outwards - they always open inwards (and still do on Mk IV stock (or slide)).

In your case it would open inwards towards the towel rail - which would avoid the servants door and lavatory door clashing.

 

[Richard Gawler]

View attachment 185063
. . .

4. The lavatory compartment has a maximum width of 3ft 6in at waist level and this dimension matches the size of first class lavatory compartments built by the GER in 1896 - see inset. The width reduces to make a pocket to hold the sliding door.

5. The door to the lavatory compartment opens outwards in keeping with the practice at the time and is hinged on the left to maximise privacy from passengers in the third class compartment.

Just thought - I don't recall lavatory doors on trains opening outwards - they always open inwards (and still do on Mk IV stock (or slide)).

In your case it would open inwards towards the towel rail - which would avoid the servants door and lavatory door clashing.

There isn't quite enough room for the door to open inwards. The free space for the occupant would be the 18 inch circle and this is too small, people won't be able to shuffle round to close the door behind them.

The examples I can find with a lavatory door opening inwards are with similar compartments 4ft long and longer. Unfortunately, I cannot find any more space in the model.

I want to represent the doors, but they won't be opening and closing. I can offer Holden's example of an outward-opening door (post no. 40 and GER Type 6 here) if a nit-picker says the compartment is too short for the door to open.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Thanks for the historical notes - I didn't realise outward opening toilet doors were used in early carriages.