Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Thanks, Barry, for more info and another picture of the Brighton Pullman sheds.

Dave and Adam - thanks for sorting out the confusion regarding the water softener hatch.

Yorkshire Dave. Once more you come to my rescue with details of the electric stock for which many thanks.

As you'll see quite soon, Martin, the dates of at least some of these photos are suspect. They'll need some work by me to see if I can sort some of the info out and we'll get to that in a post coming up very soon. I note the E4 and coal pick too, clearly prototypical for Yorkshire Dave's model seen earlier.

Brian - I wondered about those hanging letters too. You may well be correct about them being to do with mail sorting. My first thought was that they'd be for parcels and indicating which station they'd be going to but there aren't too many stations with a name starting with "X" so I'll bet your belief is correct.

Class N 2-6-0 31408 backing out of Waterloo on a parcels train on 15th November 1962. It was a Salisbury engine at the time, having moved there in November 1961, thence to Guildford in September 1963 where it was withdrawn in June 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport, in September the same year (BR Database).



You might like to look back at post #3405 which corresponds with this photo to a large degree. Tim says this is original Battle of Britain 34068 Kenley, M7 30055 and Rebuilt Merchant Navy 35013 Blue Funnel at Waterloo on 15th November 1962. There is no doubt that the Battle of Britain is 34068 but I’m doubtful about the identification of the other two – the Merchant Navy was seen in post #3433 above but facing in the opposite direction, backing out of the platform. Now it’s not impossible that the loco had been to Nine Elms, been serviced turned and returned but is that likely? As for the M7, as shown below, there is no evidence of 30055 ever being allocated to a London shed.

I suspect the Pullman train behind the MN is probably the Bournemouth Belle with Car No 31 prominent being shunted to the carriage sidings by the MN which has arrived on an earlier train as empty stock.

34068 is a probable in post #3284. It was allocated to Stewarts Lane from December 1949 and moved to Salisbury in May 1961 where it was withdrawn in November 1963. (SLS). The Railway Observer reported that it arrived at Eastleigh Works in February 1964 and was cut up there week ending 21st March 1964.

My doubts about 30055 stem from the SLS record which shows it allocated to Three Bridges from November 1959, then Guildford in July 1962 and Tunbridge Wells West in January 1963 where it was withdrawn on 15th September 1963 although a day later being allocated to Three Bridges again – most unlikely I’d have thought although it could have gone there for storage. Nevertheless, WHTS shows it in store at Tunbridge Wells West in October 1963 so the SLS suggestion of a transfer to Three Bridges after withdrawal looks spurious. The Railway Observer advises that the loco was seen at Eastleigh and cut up there week ending 15th February 1964.

Specially for Dave some electric stock to the left of the frame.



Another of the 57XX pannier tanks sent to the Southern is 9770 seen here on empty Pullman stock at Clapham Junction on 15th November 1962. This went to Nine Elms in March 1959 and to Bath Green Park in July 1963 where it was withdrawn at the end of November the same year. (SLS). The Railway Observer report it at Bird’s, Morriston and WHTS that it was scrapped there , BR Database giving us a date of March 1964.



Brian

 

[Barry37]

Thanks, Barry, for more info and another picture of the Brighton Pullman sheds.

Dave and Adam - thanks for sorting out the confusion regarding the water softener hatch.

Yorkshire Dave. Once more you come to my rescue with details of the electric stock for which many thanks.

As you'll see quite soon, Martin, the dates of at least some of these photos are suspect. They'll need some work by me to see if I can sort some of the info out and we'll get to that in a post coming up very soon. I note the E4 and coal pick too, clearly prototypical for Yorkshire Dave's model seen earlier.

Brian - I wondered about those hanging letters too. You may well be correct about them being to do with mail sorting. My first thought was that they'd be for parcels and indicating which station they'd be going to but there aren't too many stations with a name starting with "X" so I'll bet your belief is correct.

Class N 2-6-0 31408 backing out of Waterloo on a parcels train on 15th November 1962. It was a Salisbury engine at the time, having moved there in November 1961, thence to Guildford in September 1963 where it was withdrawn in June 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport, in September the same year (BR Database).

View attachment 213584

You might like to look back at post #3405 which corresponds with this photo to a large degree. Tim says this is original Battle of Britain 34068 Kenley, M7 30055 and Rebuilt Merchant Navy 35013 Blue Funnel at Waterloo on 15th November 1962. There is no doubt that the Battle of Britain is 34068 but I’m doubtful about the identification of the other two – the Merchant Navy was seen in post #3433 above but facing in the opposite direction, backing out of the platform. Now it’s not impossible that the loco had been to Nine Elms, been serviced turned and returned but is that likely? As for the M7, as shown below, there is no evidence of 30055 ever being allocated to a London shed.

I suspect the Pullman train behind the MN is probably the Bournemouth Belle with Car No 31 prominent being shunted to the carriage sidings by the MN which has arrived on an earlier train as empty stock.

34068 is a probable in post #3284. It was allocated to Stewarts Lane from December 1949 and moved to Salisbury in May 1961 where it was withdrawn in November 1963. (SLS). The Railway Observer reported that it arrived at Eastleigh Works in February 1964 and was cut up there week ending 21st March 1964.

My doubts about 30055 stem from the SLS record which shows it allocated to Three Bridges from November 1959, then Guildford in July 1962 and Tunbridge Wells West in January 1963 where it was withdrawn on 15th September 1963 although a day later being allocated to Three Bridges again – most unlikely I’d have thought although it could have gone there for storage. Nevertheless, WHTS shows it in store at Tunbridge Wells West in October 1963 so the SLS suggestion of a transfer to Three Bridges after withdrawal looks spurious. The Railway Observer advises that the loco was seen at Eastleigh and cut up there week ending 15th February 1964.

Specially for Dave some electric stock to the left of the frame.

View attachment 213585

Another of the 57XX pannier tanks sent to the Southern is 9770 seen here on empty Pullman stock at Clapham Junction on 15th November 1962. This went to Nine Elms in March 1959 and to Bath Green Park in July 1963 where it was withdrawn at the end of November the same year. (SLS). The Railway Observer report it at Bird’s, Morriston and WHTS that it was scrapped there , BR Database giving us a date of March 1964.

View attachment 213586

Brian

Shed Bash shows 30055 at Eastleigh yard in February 1962, and says it was allocated to Brighton 75A.
Relating to shed codes, when the Prudential Assurance Co. had regional offices, they had code numbers. And perhaps it's just coincidence, but the Brighton regional office code was M75.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
I rather think you have confused yourself regarding the Merchant Navy, it's facing the buffer stops in both pics and has obviously been used for a spot of shunting.

It should perhaps be noted that 30055 was P&P fitted of which there is no sign of on the rear bufferbeam of the M7 in the pic. It could well be 30033 again. 55 was never allocated to Nine Elms and I can perhaps explain the allocation oddity. It went from Guildford to Tunbridge Wells West in Jan 63 as a result of the Guildford - Horsham services being modernised with Ivatt Class 2 locomotives, and as a P&P fitted loco it would be useful on the Three Bridges - TWW services via East Grinstead HL. It went from TWW to Three Bridges shed in Sept 63 because the former was closed that month although storage at TWW shed was equally likely as it was probably withdrawn on the same date as the shed closure. There is no doubt that both 3 Bridges and TWW loco crews preferred a H class to an M7 for PP work. The steaming of the M7 boilers being somewhat variable compared to Ashfords finest.

I think shed bash is wrong, the only allocation of 30055 to Brighton I can find record of is 4/56 - 5/59.

Martin

 

[Barry37]

Brian
I rather think you have confused yourself regarding the Merchant Navy, it's facing the buffer stops in both pics and has obviously been used for a spot of shunting.

It should perhaps be noted that 30055 was P&P fitted of which there is no sign of on the rear bufferbeam of the M7 in the pic. It could well be 30033 again. 55 was never allocated to Nine Elms and I can perhaps explain the allocation oddity. It went from Guildford to Tunbridge Wells West in Jan 63 as a result of the Guildford - Horsham services dieselisation and as a P&P fitted loco it would be useful on the Three Bridges - TWW services via East Grinstead HL. It went from TWW to Three Bridges shed in Sept 63 because the former was closed that month although storage at TWW shed was equally likely as it was probably withdrawn on the same date as the shed closure. There is no doubt that both 3 Bridges and TWW loco crews preferred a H class to an M7 for PP work. The steaming of the M7 boilers being somewhat variable compared to Ashfords finest.

I think shed bash is wrong, the only allocation of 30055 to Brighton I can find record of is 4/56 - 5/59.

Martin

Shed bash could be wrong, as no M7s are shown as being present at Brighton in the 1960-64 period.
The last two years of the shed's operation were when I did occasional loco spotting at Brighton station, and they're not a type I recall seeing (or in the few photos I took). By then, it was mostly Ivatt Class 2s and BR 2-6-4Ts, plus WC/BB for the Plymouth turn. 2-6-0s for the Uckfield line were being replaced by BRCW Class 3s (33).

 

[76043]

I thought shed bash was just an indication of what was on shed on a particular date, not necessarily allocated.
Tony

 

[Martin Shaw]

Not quite Tony, almost always the allocation of a particular loco is given with of course no guarantee that it's correct but yes its more so a record of what's there on the day, often as not a Sunday.
Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Specially for Dave some electric stock to the left of the frame.

This is a 4-COR unit.

Class N 2-6-0 31408 backing out of Waterloo on a parcels train on 15th November 1962. It was a Salisbury engine at the time, having moved there in November 1961, thence to Guildford in September 1963 where it was withdrawn in June 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport, in September the same year (BR Database).

The electric unit on the left will be a SR built 4-SUB - indentified by it's high gutter line.

 

[oldravendale]

Barry, Martin and Tony. I think we can rule out 30055 as a candidate. I'll take a punt on it being 30034 which we know from photographic evidence was at Waterloo at the right time - and Shed Bash is indeed a record of what was on shed at the time of the visit although the loco allocations recorded at the same time can be most useful.

Martin - re the Merchant Navy. Put my notes down to the ramblings of an unsound mind. Of course it is the same way round in both photos!

Dave - as ever you've come to my rescue with the detail of the EMUs. Many thanks.

This series has really put the cat among the pigeons regarding the date of all those Southern photos. Those below and in posts #3362 and #3368 must have been taken on 2nd December 1962 which puts all the others, I suggest, at the same date. My reasoning is this: As we’ve previously established Six Bells Junction advises there were two tours behind the 0298 well tanks, on 2nd and 16th December. However, there were some differences which enable us to establish which tour this is. The tour on 2nd December used set 278 and carried reporting number SPL 12. The reporting number for the tour on 16th December is not recorded, but the set number is 352. Tim’s photos in #3362 and #3368 show the well tanks carrying reporting numbers SPL11 and SPL12. Img2780 just coming up shows the set number to be 278 and the reporting numbers carried by the locos, although a bit blured, appear to be SPL11. There is also one coming up of the H16 2-6-4T 30517 carrying number SPL 4. Photos attached to the Six Bells Junction files confirm the set numbers and SPL12 on the train hauled by the well tanks. A photo of the train hauled by the H16 has reporting number SPL4. (Confusingly there’s also a photo on Six Bells Junction of the H16 light engine at Wimbledon carrying SPL36 but this should, I’m sure, be associated with the 16th December train as Tim’s shows it carrying SPL4.)

The photos of the train on 16th December shows the well tanks carrying reporting number SPL32 and set 352. The H16 on the train carries reporting number SPL36 ergo Tim’s photos must have been taken on 2nd December.

This is film 78. The longer series is neg strip 79. I’m talking myself in to reassembling each of the films in to frame order which may help to confirm some of the dates of the pictures other than the RCTS Special – certainly those between the shots of the 0298 tanks. Regrettably there’s no certainty that film 78 preceded film 79 in order – some of Tim’s filing could be a touch eccentric.







Here’s the third loco participant in the 0298 excursion of 2nd December 1962. It’s H16 4-6-2T 30517 carrying the SPL4 disc. It was photographed in Wimbledon Down Yard. By now it was a Feltham engine and had been since May 1961. It was withdrawn at the end of 1962 (SLS), so only a few weeks after this photo was taken and was scrapped at Eastleigh Works in June 1963. (BR Database)



Brian