Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[mickoo]

Image 2054, A4 heading south, it's 60001 -09 to choose from with a beaded corridor tender and 4'-3" handrails.

Only one engine in that group on that date had that type of tender, 60007 Sir Nigel Gresley with 1928 corridor tender (Ex A3) #5324.

Image 2055 has a streamlined non corridor tender, I can't see the handrail length but on the given date there's a handful to choose from, 1,2,3,6,16,18,19,20,23,26 but it's a two word name and quite short so that narrows it down to 16, 18, 23 and 26.

It does look like the forth digit is a 2 so you're choices are 23 or 36, if you could see the hand rail length then you'd be able to choose between the two as they were one from each batch.

 

[oldravendale]

Image 2054, A4 heading south, it's 60001 -09 to choose from with a beaded corridor tender and 4'-3" handrails.

Only one engine in that group on that date had that type of tender, 60007 Sir Nigel Gresley with 1928 corridor tender (Ex A3) #5324.

Image 2055 has a streamlined non corridor tender, I can't see the handrail length but on the given date there's a handful to choose from, 1,2,3,6,16,18,19,20,23,26 but it's a two word name and quite short so that narrows it down to 16, 18, 23 and 26.

It does look like the forth digit is a 2 so you're choices are 23 or 36, if you could see the hand rail length then you'd be able to choose between the two as they were one from each batch.

Thanks so much again, Mick. The cab side number can be partially read on img2054 as 6000-something. It's the final digit that's obscured. So it's 60007 for sure.

Img2055 is a bit more difficult. It's not pin sharp to start with. (I suspect Tim was shivering!) Just on the off chance that it'll help I've done a blow up of the loco and lifted the image with a load more contrast. Does this help?

 

[Martin Shaw]

Mickoo has got to the same conclusion re #2054, and I agree its most likely Sir Nigel which was a Kings X engine then, however there is an extreme outside possibility that its 60004 Willie Whitelaw which had at the time the A3 corridor tender (5484) originally built for 10000. Given that it was a Haymarket engine in Dec 62 the chances of it being at Hornsey are pretty slim.
Regards
martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for muddying the waters, Martin, if only very slightly! I agree that the chances of Willie Whitelaw being so far south would be a bit slim, although the corridor tender A4s could travel that distance, could they not? It also brings me to a question I meant to ask in the last post - we determined that the loco in post #2387 was probably 60161, North British. However, at the time it was a Haymarket engine so would it have been this far south?

Brian

 

[mickoo]

Mickoo has got to the same conclusion re #2054, and I agree its most likely Sir Nigel which was a Kings X engine then, however there is an extreme outside possibility that its 60004 Willie Whitelaw which had at the time the A3 corridor tender (5484) originally built for 10000. Given that it was a Haymarket engine in Dec 62 the chances of it being at Hornsey are pretty slim.
Regards
martin

It could be 004 as that tender (5484) had the short A3 4'-3" handrails as well.

 

[mickoo]

Thanks for muddying the waters, Martin, if only very slightly! I agree that the chances of Willie Whitelaw being so far south would be a bit slim, although the corridor tender A4s could travel that distance, could they not? It also brings me to a question I meant to ask in the last post - we determined that the loco in post #2387 was probably 60161, North British. However, at the time it was a Haymarket engine so would it have been this far south?

Brian

Good point, technically no, only A4's worked right through with the corridor tenders, all others changed engines, typically Newcastle, sometimes York.

Longest runs for A1's on the southern ECML were from Leeds or York, possibly some Newcastle turns, if any were allocated up that way, not up to speed on those if they were.

ECML had three major express engine change points, Newcastle, York, Grantham.

Having said all that, 60161 was at Doncaster works from 21st Jan to 1st Mar 1963 so there is a possibility that it's on a running in turn though usually they only went as far as Grantham before returning, having said that, by this late date Grantham may have decided to keep it a day or two and send it to Kings X.

The only counter argument to that are the dates Tim has noted, late December 62.

Personally, by far and away these latest ECML snow shots are some of the more interesting ones for me.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks again, Mick. I can confirm that the winter of '62/63 was one of the coldest and snowiest on record, right through to March. However, to put a spoke in the running in theory I'm pretty confident the date of the photos is accurate as one of the locos photographed and shown in this series previously was actually withdrawn on 29th December. I guess the answer is we'll never know for sure!

 

[simond]

the snow was considerably above my knees, and I was still in short trousers

 

[Martin Shaw]

Post #2387 could well be 161 however some seeds of doubt. It was a Haymarket engine until that shed shut to steam so it spent its last month at St Margarets. I have a book "Steam Days at Haymarket" by the late Harry Knox who was a fireman there from the late 50s until Dec 61, a small anecdote, I spent a day firing Maude to him probably 20 years ago, he was wont to remind me that he had first fired it when I was about 2. It was a great day and the only time I shared the footplate with him, lovely generous man.

His book usefully gives the links at Haymarket in the winter of 57, No 1 link was all A4s 4,9,11,12,24,27,31, which in the winter went no further south than Newcastle so I think the possibilty of 60004 at Hornsey is remote in the extreme. No 2 link was 5 A1s and an A3 Papyrus, quite why the odd one out I have no idea but it appears to have coped easily with the work which says much for Gresleys design, not that there is any doubt. At that time the engines concerned were 96,152,159,160,161,162. Again there were no booked workings south of Newcastle which all lends weight to Mick's comments.

Of course engines failed and I suppose a Copley Hill pacific not being available meant that a Haymarket engine might turn up on the Yorkshire Pullman, if not though the subject of imgs 2037/8 is necessarily limited to one of the railway A1s 147 North Eastern, 156 Great Central, 157 Great Eastern, although obviously not Great Northern. 157 was a Kings X engine so seems perhaps the most likely.

Regards
Martin

 

[mickoo]

Post #2387 could well be 161 however some seeds of doubt. It was a Haymarket engine until that shed shut to steam so it spent its last month at St Margarets. I have a book "Steam Days at Haymarket" by the late Harry Knox who was a fireman there from the late 50s until Dec 61, a small anecdote, I spent a day firing Maude to him probably 20 years ago, he was wont to remind me that he had first fired it when I was about 2. It was a great day and the only time I shared the footplate with him, lovely generous man.

His book usefully gives the links at Haymarket in the winter of 57, No 1 link was all A4s 4,9,11,12,24,27,31, which in the winter went no further south than Newcastle so I think the possibilty of 60004 at Hormsey is remote in the extreme. No 2 link was 5 A1s and an A3 Papyrus, quite why the odd one out I have no idea but it appears to have coped easily with the work which says much for Gresleys design, not that there is any doubt. At that time the engines concerned were 96,152,159,160,161,162. Again there were no booked workings south of Newcastle which all lends weight to Mick's comments.

Of course engines failed and I suppose a Copley Hill pacific not being available meant that a Haymarket engine might turn up on the Yorkshire Pullman, if not though the subject of imgs 2037/8 is necessarily limited to one of the railway A1s 147 North Eastern, 156 Great Central, 157 Great Eastern, although obviously not Great Northern. 157 was a Kings X engine so seems perhaps the most likely.

Regards
Martin

It won't be 147 as that has smooth sided tender, which only leaves 156, 157 and 161. The fly in the ointment for 156 and 157 are the tender axle boxes, they were roller bearing fitted and should have round covers, as Arun noted (and I agree) they don't look like round covers on there, but it is an acute angle. I've looked at other photos of the roller bearing engines and even at acute angles the round cover is still just discernible, primarily because it's smooth and doesn't have the raised ribs on that normal bearing covers have.

I agree that 161 this far south is very rare, but then it was one of a three loaned to Polmadie and has been noted at Crewe a few times.

I've just found an on line forum reference to 161 heading north at Retford, I don't have that book they note but it has opened another rabbit hole I can peruse.

 

[76043]

There's an unidentified 9F in there somewhere in this distant view of Hornsey 29th - 31st December 1962.

View attachment 194054

I really like these loco-less shots, gives a real flavour of the general railway scene, and very useful in my view for modelling purposes.

Bring on more Colin Walker style shots please.
Tony

 

[Martin Shaw]

Mick
I have had another look at the original post and all my references. The roller bearing engines, 153 -157, had tender and Cartazzi truck axlebox covers held on by four bolts in a square pattern around the circumference of the round cover. I have blown up the picture and can positively see these features in img#2037 which along with allocations leads me to still believe its most likely 157 Great Eastern.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks, particularly Mick and Martin, for your continuing efforts to determine "that A1". I've done a mask of the relevant area on Tim's photo - here:



Here's a section of non-roller bearing 60123 (copyright unknown).



...and one of roller bearing 60155 (also copyright unknown). Regrettably I don't have a photo of 161 other than the one in question.


Dunno whether these make the identification easier.

More of Tim's photos will be upcoming as soon as I can get to them. Other matters are getting in the way right now.

Brian

 

[Genghis]

My vote is for 157.

 

[mickoo]

Mick
I have had another look at the original post and all my references. The roller bearing engines, 153 -157, had tender and Cartazzi truck axlebox covers held on by four bolts in a square pattern around the circumference of the round cover. I have blown up the picture and can positively see these features in img#2037 which along with allocations leads me to still believe its most likely 157 Great Eastern.
Martin

Yeah I'd go with that

Brian's enlarged crop this morning clearly shows the circular covers on the axle boxes which I couldn't quite make out on the original image, depot allocations also fit the candidate.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
It seems there is general agreement that it is 60157 Great Eastern, however my earlier post #2409 is possibly misleading, both it and 156 Great Central were allocated as follows,

60156 new to Kings X 19/10/49, Grantham 9/9/51, Kings X 16/9/56, Doncaster 5/4/59, York 26/1/64, Wdn 10/5/65.
60157 new to Kings X 3/11/49, Grantham 9/9/51, Kings X 16/9/56, Doncaster 5/4/59, Wdn 10/1/65.

Both engines were at Doncaster at the time of Tim's photo so it could be either I feel, sorry about my misreading Mr Yeadon.

The other odd thing is why a Doncaster engine was on the Yorkshire Pullman, long a Copley Hill turn. There were at least four A1s still at the latter shed at that time Kestrel, St Mungo, Abbotsford, Aboyeur.

Martin

 

[mickoo]

Brian
It seems there is general agreement that it is 60157 Great Eastern, however my earlier post #2409 is possibly misleading, both it and 156 Great Central were allocated as follows,

60156 new to Kings X 19/10/49, Grantham 9/9/51, Kings X 16/9/56, Doncaster 5/4/59, York 26/1/64, Wdn 10/5/65.
60157 new to Kings X 3/11/49, Grantham 9/9/51, Kings X 16/9/56, Doncaster 5/4/59, Wdn 10/1/65.

Both engines were at Doncaster at the time of Tim's photo so it could be either I feel, sorry about my misreading Mr Yeadon.

The other odd thing is why a Doncaster engine was on the Yorkshire Pullman, long a Copley Hill turn. There were at least four A1s still at the latter shed at that time Kestrel, St Mungo, Abbotsford, Aboyeur.

Martin

The train may well have changed engines at Grantham as a move to get either back to a following working; though I think the Leeds Pullmans usually worked right through, or certainly could if needed.

 

[Dog Star]

The other odd thing is why a Doncaster engine was on the Yorkshire Pullman, long a Copley Hill turn. There were at least four A1s still at the latter shed at that time Kestrel, St Mungo, Abbotsford, Aboyeur.

Kestrel... A1?

 

[Martin Shaw]

Indeed so Graham, the A1s had a mixed bag of names drawn from about every strand of LNER naming policy. Apparently the ER/NER in 1948 as successors to the LNER chose a series race horses names in perpetuation of the policy started in 1923 with the Gresley A1/A3s. The Railway Executive keen to demonstrate its powers felt that naming policy should be nationalised and appointed a naming committee loaded towards the LMS, no surprise there, which resulted in the fairly muddled collection.

There were six named after birds,
120 Kittiwake
122 Curlew
130 Kestrel
131 Osprey
139 Sea Eagle
146 Peregrine

Of these the first two was the first use of the name by the LNER, the remainder were ex A4s that had been renamed,
26 Kestrel became Miles Beevor 1/11/47
4488 Osprey was renamed Union of South Africa before entering traffic 29/6/37. The former name was put on 4494 which became
Andrew K.McCosh 21/8/42
28 Sea Eagle became Walter K.Whigham 1/10/47
60034 Peregrine became Lord Faringdon 24/3/48

Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you David, Mick and Martin for your persistence which has lead to a (I believe) satisfactory conclusion. I'll edit the description to go with the photo to suggest it may be either 156 or 157. Tim and I would both like it to be 156!

We'll pick up the gallery from where we last left it.

9F 92178 at Hornsey 29th - 31st December 1962. The loco belonged to New England, moving to Langwith Junction in January 1965 where it was condemned the following October. (SLS). It was scrapped in December at T W Ward, Killamarsh. (BR Database).



Class A1 60148 Aboyeur on an up Leeds train at Potters Bar on 22nd December 1962. This has been in post #2024 previously. It was at Leeds, Copley Hill, at the time of the photo and then moved around a bit, ending up at Gateshead from where it was withdrawn in June 1965. (SLS). By August it had been scrapped at Arnott Young, Dinsdale. (BR Database).



WD 2-8-0 90253 light engine at Potters Bar on 22nd December 1962. It had been a New England engine since 1950, being withdrawn from there seven days after this photo, so this must have been one of its last sightings. (SLS). It went to T W Ward, Beighton, where it was scrapped in May 1963. (BR Database).



Brian