Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Yorkshire Dave]

I don't know what the property was before, it may have just been a residence, it looks a modern property on the corner but European houses age well and my gut feeling is it's the same structure. What it was previously I don't know. but the large space out front could have been a car park.

Dave might be able to sleuth better what the property was before with his cartography expertise, it may have been a hostel/hotel or maybe even a business/shop and Tim has blagged his way inside for these photos. We'll probably never know, but I'm confident the crossing is Duther Street in Melstrup.

Well done @mickoo. I can corroborate the location based on the trees. The two in the centre have the same trunk profiles and lean (have obviously grown since) and the small one in the ditch next to the warning sign has also grown. In addition the two crossing signs (since replaced) are a statutory 80m from the crossing and are unlikey to have changed location.



As for the building.... well, the headline on this 2018 news article reads Former brothel on B70 in Melstrup burned down.


At this stage I cannot track any further detail on the building's history however given it's location on the Bundesstraße I would suspect in 1974 it was a former Gasthaus - on the other hand we may not know!

 

[oldravendale]

Martin. Thank you for your investigations in to the Hawkhurst last day trains and also for the work you've done on the carriage sets in use when Tim travelled. I think it most unlikely that he had any record of the vehicle in which he travelled and to be able to identify it as one of four is remarkable. As far as the use of a Schools on that heavy train is concerned they were truly remarkable engines, particularly as 4-4-0s. I think this single occasion rather proves it. A favourite class of mine - my dear departed father came home from work one evening with the Rosebud Kitmaster "Harrow" tucked under his arm as an unbirthday present. I built it and inevitably glued all the valve gear solid but it lived in my bedroom for many years. Ever since all the Schools Class locos have held a special place for me but especially "Harrow". All info carefully stored.

Then, Sherlock and Dr Watson alias Mickoo and Yorkshire Dave. What an utterly remarkable bit of research! If Tim and his party were staying at the place you've identified he never let on he'd been accommodated in a bordello! All that data deserves a file of its own which it will get after I've entered everything on the master file for the German trip. Thank you so much and please keep this stuff coming as long as you can find the time.

I'll try to get some more photos up today but I'm presently making up wire, tube and fixings packs to go in kits at Kettering so this will take precedence.

Brian

 

[mickoo]

Well done @mickoo. I can corroborate the location based on the trees. The two in the centre have the same trunk profiles and lean (have obviously grown since) and the small one in the ditch next to the warning sign has also grown. In addition the two crossing signs (since replaced) are a statutory 80m from the crossing and are unlikey to have changed location.

View attachment 210351

As for the building.... well, the headline on this 2018 news article reads Former brothel on B70 in Melstrup burned down.

View attachment 210353
At this stage I cannot track any further detail on the building's history however given it's location on the Bundesstraße I would suspect in 1974 it was a former Gasthaus - on the other hand we may not know!

Good show , knew you'd unearth something, didn't quite expect that though

To be frank, the perfect venue to convert to a house of sin would be an old hotel, so there's every chance it was one in previous days.

Tree's I was interested to see them planted 2x2 neatly up the road and expected to see the Ark at the end The reason they're bent is the wind, most of this area is pretty flat and 80% of high/er winds come from the SE in Europe. Many trees in flat areas in Holland, Germany, Denmark and the UK all lean toward the NE. If you check the aerial view and the tree lean then these do not deify that general rule.

It's a good way to get your bearings and orientation, as taught to me on outward bound courses by survival guides.

 

[daifly]

The reason they're bent is the wind, most of this area is pretty flat and 80% of high/er winds come from the SE in Europe. Many trees in flat areas in Holland, Germany, Denmark and the UK all lean toward the NE. If you check the aerial view and the tree lean then these do not deify that general rule.

Ahem. Finger trouble maybe? Trees do not generally lean at right-angles to the prevailing wind! A SE wind will provoke a NW lean etc.

Dave

 

[mickoo]

Ahem. Finger trouble maybe? Trees do not generally lean at right-angles to the prevailing wind! A SE wind will provoke a NW lean etc.

Dave

Oh definitely

Predominate wind is SW and trees lean NE

I'm glad someone here pays attention

As an aside, 80% of the Port of Felixstowe high wind alerts came from the SW and used to cause numerous stack fails, hence the park being off limits if the speed got above 45-50mph. Some clever spark invited one of the universities to study wind flow around stacks of containers and it's actually the vacuum behind that does the most work.

Nevertheless they worked out a stack profile to minimize these effects with the prevailing SW wind, the port used this to program the park system to begin profiling the stack a few days before the event, mostly end of block profiling, cutting down 5 highs (unless it was a solid block) and any chimneys (towers of three boxes or more).

The result was dramatic, whilst we still had the odd container here and there blow over most remained stable, those that did blow over had either been missed by the profile program or had been shuffled by a crane close to the event and not re-profiled back.

Three high chimney blow overs.




Four high chimney blow overs



This is end of block and the wind hits from the right to the left roughly along the solid white line, so it's hitting the stack at about 45° to the ends.



This is why the park is closed in high winds. This is not a six high stack but a combination of fives and fours blown over, close to 120t lying there on the ground.



These are all loaded containers, anything from 10-32t, empties are stored elsewhere and stacked 8 or nine high but in solid bricks, this is only five high but you get the idea.



Normal service is resumed.

 

[oldravendale]

I remember being told that both Ferrybridge and Fiddlers Ferry power station cooling towers fell down in some freak winds. That's to say one of them, not all of them!

Brian

 

[Genghis]

I remember being told that both Ferrybridge and Fiddlers Ferry power station cooling towers fell down in some freak winds. That's to say one of them, not all of them!

Brian

The man who solved the problem as to why they fell down was called Charles Fredericks. He later went on to be head of civil engineering with BR Research. Roger Ford often described the inhabitants of that establishment as 'Brains on Sticks'. Well, not all of us who worked there were worthy of that description, but Charles certainly belonged to that club. I was once interviewed by him as the chair of the interviewing panel: a formidable experience! ( I didn't get the promotion).
Dave

 

[gateman 49]

Brian,
the GW had a long history of swapping names with royal connections from loco to loco. I've a vague memory that the same happend for the funerals of Victoria and George V. When this happened the locos kept the numbers but swapped names. A large number of the parts for each loco had the loco number stamped on them to ensure they went back to the correct loco. The loco number is associated with the frames and the boilers were standardised so that when a loco started a heavy the boiler went off and the next rebuilt boiler out of the shops went onto the frames. Number changes only happened with the 4-4-0s but I doubt any of Tim's photos will require us to lift that stone.
Simon
PS 4082 is 4082, 7013 is 7013

First of all apologies as this is a long time after the original posts, my excuse being that I have only recently come across this wonderful thread.

It wasn't just royal connections that led to temporary or permanent name changes as Powerful and White of the Atbara class exchanged names when HMS Powerful returned triumphantly to Portsmouth after the Relief of Ladysmith. During the Boer War HMS Powerful had supplied guns that were transferred to wooden limbers/carts and dragged inland to Ladysmith for the relieving force. On return to UK the crew were taken to London in a special train to be hauled by a suitable locomotive and the real Powerful wasn't available (I think it was in works).

They did a march past and, I think, a re-enactment of the gun carriage transfer. Directly from this came the Royal Tournament Field Gun Competition.

Why am I interested in this piece of perhaps useless information? Well, one of my maternal great grandfathers was a Chief Stoker on HMS Powerful at the time!

p.s. I have almost completed my 7mm Finney Atbara complete with working valve gear and, of course, it is to be named Powerful.

 

[mickoo]

I remember being told that both Ferrybridge and Fiddlers Ferry power station cooling towers fell down in some freak winds. That's to say one of them, not all of them!

Brian

Well there's a little yarn about that and basically every cylindrical structure has a self destruct wind speed, again it's the vacuum behind and vortices. Vertical round structures can be affected by wind in all directions...because their round, check out street lights in high winds, they'll quiver left and right at certain wind speeds. On the cooling towers it caused them to flex into an oval at a set frequency that caused them to fail.

There were several container crane failures due to the same mechanics, cross stays are light and thin walled, their strength is in compression not laterally, at certain wind speeds they whip up and down and eventually fail.

To over come this you need to disturb the air flow, in the case of our cranes they just welded a spiral bead on the surface of the tube (seen on the upper brace). We also used to tie the parallel beams together with a simple wire brace as no two beams osculate at the same frequency, the simple wire in conjunction with the welded spiral is enough to eliminate flexing. However they then do tend to buzz/quiver at a much higher frequency, quite disturbing to feel if you lean against them or touch then in higher winds.



Check out many modern circular flues and chimneys at industrial sites, many of these will have a helix shape attached or welded on, this is to disrupt the airflow and prevent failures. Many of those on chimneys are much broader, almost like a spiral plate effect, these actually help divert the air on calmer days and generate an upward plume which helps lift the gasses higher, create a vacuum at the opening and help draw gasses up the flue.

You can see this in action on calmer days, normally the plume will start to billow out pretty soon after leaving the flue, those with wind lifters will have an extended vertical plume at the base before it begins to billow out. You don't half learn some boring on nights when chatting to the yeast factory engineers in the canteen.

As for the beams, that was imparted to me during my stint job sharing on the structural inspection team, we had a few cranes with fractured gussets where the beams attach to the cranes, they were cut out, deep welded and then we had a spiral welded to the tube to prevent future failures.

 

[simond]

Mick,

I think the spiral welds are actually the way the pipe is formed from sheet metal. It may well have a vortex shedding function too. Some steel pipe chimneys have spiral shedders welded onto the upper section. This is quite interesting; Vortex shedding - Wikipedia. (Nice photo too)

The shedding function I recall from university days was the back edge of Ford Sierra rear windows which acquired a sharp longitudinal shedder down the sides of the glass. I couldn’t find a useful link. As an aside, that icon of automotive perfection (well, imo, and very much more importantly, MrsD’s opinion too) the 911, needed the tea-tray to shed the staggering lift that the sleek (and in those days, novel) body shape generated.

The real numbers are no longer in my mind, but IIRC the rear wheels lost ground contact at around 120mph due to lift on the original design!

Many similar shaped cars will have shedders down the C/D pillars to avoid this issue - might only be a sharp edge to the rear window frame, which may well be integral in the body-in-white design, rather than an add-on

atb
Simon

 

[Arun Sharma]

'Like' doesn't really seem appropriate for these last two posts. Is there a suitable emoji that would be recognized as "Interesting/Informative" available?

 

[Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen]

Mick,

I think the spiral welds are actually the way the pipe is formed from sheet metal. It may well have a vortex shedding function too. Some steel pipe chimneys have spiral shedders welded onto the upper section. This is quite interesting; Vortex shedding - Wikipedia. (Nice photo too)

The shedding function I recall from university days was the back edge of Ford Sierra rear windows which acquired a sharp longitudinal shedder down the sides of the glass. I couldn’t find a useful link. As an aside, that icon of automotive perfection (well, imo, and very much more importantly, MrsD’s opinion too) the 911, needed the tea-tray to shed the staggering lift that the sleek (and in those days, novel) body shape generated.

The real numbers are no longer in my mind, but IIRC the rear wheels lost ground contact at around 120mph due to lift on the original design!

Many similar shaped cars will have shedders down the C/D pillars to avoid this issue - might only be a sharp edge to the rear window frame, which may well be integral in the body-in-white design, rather than an add-on

atb
Simon

Hi Simon,

Another Porsche fan and previous owner here. I'm not sure about the rear wheels lifting of the ground at 120mph, the 2.2 S achieved a top speed of about 140mph and stayed on the road. The front end would get pretty light though. In the earlier days the rear spoilers would improve straight line stability and as they got more powerful, eg 2.7 RS, provided an element of downforce to provide more rear end grip in the corners.

Great cars,
Tim

 

[mickoo]

Mick,

I think the spiral welds are actually the way the pipe is formed from sheet metal.

These (on these particular cranes) are not welded spiral plates (that's not to say some are not manufactured that way in lighter gauges) forming that sort of twist in plate steel this thick over that length is quite a demand and it has to be welded inside and out. Plus welding over that length is going to add more stress points and areas of failure. The strength of a tube is it's uniformity, any deflections become focal points for potential failures.

The ones I saw being fabricated in China were straight steel tubes which were being rotated on a massive set of rollers; a trolley with a welding set on was inched along a track as the tube was rolled thus welding the spiral on.

Having said that (and looking at the original RAW files), these don't look like external spiral welds, they look more like pressings so I expect the tube has been passed/twisted through a set of rollers with a groove in that imparts the vortex shedding ribs.

I have seen spiral plates formed into tubes, usually in thin gauge AC ducting, but the edges are not welded, they're rolled over/crimped to bite and grip each other.

There does come a point where the length of an individual straight tube becomes impractical, at one site they were welding off shore structures, the tubes were laid on their side on rollers, it took several days to weld them, an automated welder inside on rollers and one on the outside, actually two in and out, each 180° opposed. I can't remember the total number of welds but it was in the 20 or so range to build up and seal the two tubes. Once the machine started it didn't stop until it was fully welded; this 'smaller' one (below) welded two sections at the same time but only used one welder in that little house on top of the stilts, I think it had a corresponding one inside on rollers at the base.

The bigger one with four welders was inside the shed on the right.



Even more impressive are the welding machines used to weld the actual legs together. They tack weld a track to the inside and outside and set the robots off going round in circles to weld the two sections together. They'd just finished one leg and were prepping the parts to do the next leg here when we visited (our cranes were just off to the left being erected)

The jib cranes can only clear three sections, the bottom one is on a crawler, which when the three sections are finished crawls out onto a barge in the river. The barge has preposition stools which the leg is temporarily fixed to, the crawler lowers down and drives back onto the quay. Then they weld the next (last) two sections, flood the barge so it goes below water level and the first section is under water, stack the next section on top and weld it up.

The submersible barge then ballasts up and floats to the big portal crane in the background, that'll take the leg off the barge and into the dry dock for fitting onto the deep see rig pontoon or base structure.



Time to let Brian have his thread back

 

[SimonT]

it's the vacuum behind

Pedant ........ON
A vacuum is zero atmospheric pressure. What you have is higher pressure on one side and lower pressure on the other. That's what keeps 300 tonnes of 747 from falling on your head.

Pedant .......OFF

Any curved surface generates lift when airflows over it. The Mk II Capri was a bugga for it. A mate had one with the Dagenham lump and on a journey up the brand new A55 dual carriage way he wound it up to 100mph. As we went past 80 the nose lifted and the steering became 'optional'. He went on the become a test god.

 

[oldravendale]

Just to further my education about wind pressures/cooling towers... There were, I seem to remember, seven cooling towers at Ferrybridge. Only one fell down and folk law says that was due to the relationship one with another. Bearing in mind all the great stuff here why would one tower fall down and other identical towers at the same distance apart on the same site not fail?

Thank you all for extending this treatise on wind effects as a spin off from the discussion about the effect of wind direction on trees! IMHO this is really interesting and well worthy of its place in these columns. I'm now debating with myself whether this should all appear in the German Railways record - I've included everything up to and including the details about brothels and prevailing winds and their effect on the trees but I'm not sure whether this extended discussion should live there or not. I don't want to lose it so unless I can think of somewhere more appropriate it'll probably end up there. I remain delighted by the way this thread occasionally disappears down rabbit holes. Long may it continue to do so!

Gateman 49 - thanks for your kind comments and your interesting post. Additional information is always welcome and it has no bearing on whether the original post was recent or years ago. I'm really pleased this thread is enjoyable for you. I'll be adding your information, about which I was entirely ignorant, to the details attached to the photo of 7013/4082.

C Class 0-6-0 31004 on Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961. It was allocated to Ashford at the end of May 1961 and withdrawn in November the same year. (SLS). BR Database advises a scrapping date of November and WHTS suggests this was completed at Ashford, which seems very likely, but still needs confirmation.



Standard Class 4 2-6-4T 80042 arriving at Ashford from Maidstone East on 3rd June 1961. It was allocated to Tonbridge from the end of May 1961, having been transferred from the LMR. It moved to Exmouth Junction in June 1962 and was withdrawn in February 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Hayes, Bridgend, in May 1965. (BR Database).



One of the last remaining Class L 4-4-0s, 31760, piloting original Battle of Britain 34067 Tangmere on a heavy down Dover Boat Train at Ashford on 3rd June 1961. 31760 was allocated to Nine Elms in June 1959 from Tonbridge where it had lived since 1948. This train must have been one of its last in revenue earning service as it was withdrawn just two weeks after this photo was taken. Why a Nine Elms engine was working on the Kent Coast lines is open to conjecture so perhaps there was an allocation after that recorded at Nine Elms or the transfer to Nine Elms happened "on the books" but not in actuality. (SLS). The Railway Observer records the loco as scrapped at Ashford Works week ending 15th July 1961.

Tim photographed 34067 a week after this image - see post #3145. It was allocated to Salisbury from Stewarts Lane at the end of May 1961 so this must be considered another of the book transfers made in advance of actuality. It was withdrawn on 2nd November 1963. (SLS). There is advice that it was allocated to Exmouth Junction in September 1963 where it was immediately withdrawn. (Preserved British Steam Locomotives). In any event it went to Woodhams in Barry in April 1965. It came out of the scrapyard in January 1981 and further details can be seen in 34067 Tangmere (SR 21C167, BR s21C167 & BR 34067)





Back to Germany and Rheine - Emden in March 1974. Here is oil burning pacific 012 063-4 on a passenger train, probably at Emden.



This could be the marshalling yards at Rheine - the OHLE suggests so. Oil burning 2-10-0 043 475-3 in March 1974.



This is probably the train from the photograph above.



Brian

 

[mickoo]

I'd wager the 012 photo is taken around Melstrup, possibly the next crossing (Duther Torfweg) north (300m) from the one shown previously. The track is dead straight and raised above the surrounding land.

The 043 is Rheine, it's the same train in both shots and heading north (hoppers are empty) to Emden for loading.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

One of the last remaining Class L 4-4-0s, 31760, piloting original Battle of Britain 34067 Tangmere on a heavy down Dover Boat Train at Ashford on 3rd June 1961. 31760 was allocated to Nine Elms in June 1959 from Tonbridge where it had lived since 1948. This train must have been one of its last in revenue earning service as it was withdrawn just two weeks after this photo was taken. Why a Nine Elms engine was working on the Kent Coast lines is open to conjecture so perhaps there was an allocation after that recorded at Nine Elms or the transfer to Nine Elms happened "on the books" but not in actuality. (SLS). The Railway Observer records the loco as scrapped at Ashford Works week ending 15th July 1961.

Tim photographed 34067 a week after this image - see post #3145. It was allocated to Salisbury from Stewarts Lane at the end of May 1961 so this must be considered another of the book transfers made in advance of actuality. It was withdrawn on 2nd November 1963. (SLS). There is advice that it was allocated to Exmouth Junction in September 1963 where it was immediately withdrawn. (Preserved British Steam Locomotives). In any event it went to Woodhams in Barry in April 1965. It came out of the scrapyard in January 1981 and further details can be seen in 34067 Tangmere (SR 21C167, BR s21C167 & BR 34067)

The headcode indicates this train was routed via Swanley, Otford Junction and to Ashford on the ex-LCDR lines - probably the reason for the pilot.

 

[Arun Sharma]

Brian Dale wrote,
"Just to further my education about wind pressures/cooling towers... There were, I seem to remember, seven cooling towers at Ferrybridge. Only one fell down and folk law says that was due to the relationship one with another. Bearing in mind all the great stuff here why would one tower fall down and other identical towers at the same distance apart on the same site not fail?"
The reason is [at least] two fold. Firstly, resonance between surfaces will depend on and be affected by the presence of other surfaces nearby as well as its inherent resistance/susceptibility to movement/vibration. Change any one factor and everything changes. Secondly, when creating wind vortices, there will likley be 'an eye of the storm' where there is almost no perceptible air movement even though there may be no obvious blanking feature [e.g., a wall] - its's essentially a cancelling out between wave components running in opposing directions. The seventh tower may well have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time......

 

[Martin Shaw]

I was intrigued by Brian's reference to the L Class 31760 allocated to Nine Elms, it too doesn't apparently make much sense however there is good reason.
There were 23 L class dating from 1914 which by May 1959 had been reduced by six,
1761 wdn from Tonbridge Dec 56.
1767 wdn from Faversham Oct 58.
1769 wdn from Ramsgate Apr 56.
1772 wdn from Tonbridge Feb 59.
1774 wdn from Tonbridge Dec 58.
1781 wdn from Ramsgate Jun 59.

Similarly there were 15 L1 class dating from 1926 which by May 1959 were still all in traffic.

All thirty two then remaining were transferred in one go from various SE Division depots to Nine Elms, mostly noted as May 59 although L 31763 and L1s 31786/7 are recorded as Jun 59. This was an accountancy transfer as a result of Stage 1 of the Kent Coast electrification. Many had been in store prior to then anyway and remained so at Nine Elms. The Ls were completely withdrawn within two years, the L1s lasted 6 months longer.

The twist in the tail, in early 1960 L 31756 and L1 31783 were transferred back to Tonbridge, there weren't many steam depots left on the SE division by then, I think purely for use as pilot locos on the Night Ferry. One of these in front of usually an unrebuilt WC/BoB appears frequently in contemporaneous photos, although double headed unrebuilts have been seen. From a distance it seems a bit odd but it make sense, I think bridge restrictions on the Chatham had a bearing if that route was the choice on any particular day, the route being selected by how late the boats arrival was.
Regards
Martin

 

[Paul Tomlinson]

A report into the cooling tower collapse at Ferrybridge. Three fell down. Thanks to Brian for this interesting diversion. I remember the collapse of the transmitter at Emley Moor, due to icing rather than wind conditions. It caused a bit of excitement among the boys in my class...

https://rmets.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/j.1477-8696.1967.tb02927.x