Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Dave Holt]

No visible coal in the B1's tender. Perhaps it had been converted to oil firing? Not certain how long BR's use of oil lasted.
Dave.

 

[AJC]

There’s lots of interesting freight stock in these pictures (note the ex-Denaby colliery wagon behind the B1 for example). But it’s the Butlin’s Express that interests me. Partly because this period is ‘peak Butlin’s’, the height of the operation’s post-war expansion (new camps at Bognor, 1960, Minehead, 1962, and Barry), and partly because it’s a nice illustration of Billy Butlin’s collaboration with the railway - all the camps seem to have had BR offices onsite (I’ve been compelled to write a history of the Minehead camp for work - not something this medievalist ever expected to do). I don’t know anything much about the Butlin’s Express, but it didn’t apply to just one route: the whole thing was a sort of package tour/charter operation - which I assume was weekly on changeover day. I guess this one must have started at Skegness, and the B1 had just enough coal for the job.

Adam

PS - that said, I think Butlin’s real passion was aviation, ironically, given what it did to the business. He did site prospecting by helicopter, flew a Spitfire in air races, all sorts. Very interesting man.

 

[LarryG]

Just as blood & custard spread rapidly across the railway landscape in the early 1950s, so too did maroon after 1956. The year 1958 shows a roughly 50/50 split although it must be taken into account that a good number of ex. LNER, LMS and GWR 1920s coaches plus more modern stock down for early withdrawal were never to get maroon.

I always find pre-1959 photos more interesting partly because there ere so few railway photographers about. As regards oil-firing, it was very short lived to cover for post-war coal shortages. Plus oil became expensive.

 

[Barry37]

There’s lots of interesting freight stock in these pictures (note the ex-Denaby colliery wagon behind the B1 for example). But it’s the Butlin’s Express that interests me. Partly because this period is ‘peak Butlin’s’ the height of the operation’s post-war expansion (new camps at Bognor, 1960, Minehead, 1962, and Barry), and partly because it’s a nice illustration of Billy Butlin’s collaboration with the railway - all the camps seem to have had BR offices onsite (I’ve been compelled to write a history of the Minehead camp for work - not something this medievalist ever expected to do). I don’t know anything much about the Butlin’s Express, but it didn’t apply to just one route: the whole thing was a sort of package tour/charter operation - which I assume was weekly on changeover day. I guess this one must have started at Skegness, and the B1 had just enough coal for the job.

Adam

PS - that said, I think Butlin’s real passion was aviation, ironically, given what it did to the business. He did site prospecting by helicopter, flew a Spitfire in air races, all sorts. Very interesting man.

Butlin's: in the 1950s/early 60s, my grandfather supplied their Ocean Hotel in Saltdean, near Brighton, with wooden craftsman souvenirs labelled "Saltdean".
They were very bad at paying bills.
Having a long-overdue invoice, he went to the office there (he lived a few miles away). All invoices were thrown into tea chests, and not usually paid until the end of the season. It took some time to find his invoice in the piles.
Holidaymakers paid up front, of course.

 

[AJC]

One of the things I've learned from working on just one camp, @Barry37, is that absolutely everyone seems to have some sort of Butlin's anecdote, regardless of whether they ever visited one, and that's quite an interesting observation: I'm really not sure how the hotels were managed, or how centralised the operation was, but your story paints a picture.

Adam

 

[Martin Shaw]

It would appear that none of the B1s were ever oil fired, it was as Adam comments a fairly short lived experiment although the tender does look mighty empty. Interestingly 61302 after transfer to Colwick in Jan 65 was transferred to LMR stock on the 2/1/66. I think we have mentioned this before in that Colwick itself was transferred to the LMR in Jan 66 becoming 16B instead of 40E.

Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

For today the first three photos demonstrate what would be regarded as poor quality in almost every respect but mainly, again, down to inaccurate framing. But look at the historical detail of a railway long gone.

Stanier 2-6-2T 40100 on a local to Barking at Kentish Town on 13th June 1958. The loco was allocated to Kentish Town in October 1946 where it was withdrawn in August 1962. It was stored at Kentish Town from August to December 1962 (WHTS) and dispatched to Horwich Works on 6th December (RO) and scrapped in February 1963 (BR Database). The coaches in the foreground look to my unpractised eye like new Mk1 suburban stock.

Interesting set of photos taken at Kentish Town. Tim's were taken from the footbridge leading to the loco depot. I have annotated a NLS OS 1/1,250 1/2,500 1944-1973 series map to show the location with Tim's being in red and my dad's in blue.



This is a view looking towards Kentish Town taken by my dad some 6 ½ years earlier on 6th October 1951 from the train between Gospel Oak and Kentish Town West.


And this is part of the rear of the photo - my dad processed his own B&W images and used Air Ministry photo paper (he worked in the Meteorological Office which was part of the Air Ministry/MOD until 2011).

 

[oldravendale]

Yes, Dave @Dave Holt , the flirtation with oil was long over by the time of these photos as pointed out by Larry @LarryG (thanks for the comments re the coaching stock too, Larry) and Martin @Martin Shaw .

Thanks Adam @AJC for your re both the freight stock and the Butlins empire. That's a nice little rabbit hole... And to you as well for more Butlins anecdotes Barry @Barry37 . Billy Butlin was well ahead of the game with being slow to pay invoices. Nowadays it's quite normal for big business to demand up front payment from their clients but delay settling invoices for several months which they state in their terms of business. Seems immoral to me. However, I remember my visits to Butlins at Minehead as a young teenager "with friends" very warmly.

Then Dave @Yorkshire Dave - excellent and very useful stuff in placing the precise location of Tim's photos. Much appreciated.

Ivatt Class 4 2-6-0 43042 on shed at Kentish Town on 13th June 1958. It lived at Kettering at the time where it had been allocated since October 1957. It went to Heaton Mersey in October 1962 where it was withdrawn in February 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at Ward’s, Killamarsh, Sheffield (RO) in July 1966 (WHTS) or June 1966 (BR Database).



Black 5 45253 suggested as on the down Palatine but actually the Waverley at St Pancras on 14th June 1958. The loco was allocated to Nottingham in November 1957 and didn’t stay in a single place for very long thereafter. Allocations were Saltley November 1959, Derby November 1962, Leicester Midland March 1963, Derby January, Nottingham in March and Burton in September, all in 1964, then Carlisle Kingmoor in August 1965 and Heaton Mersey in January 1968 where it was withdrawn in March the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohen’s, Kettering in October 1968. (BR Database).



Jubilee 45564 New South Wales departing St Pancras with the Thames Clyde Express on 14th June 1958. The loco had ben allocated to Holbeck since August 1953 and moved to Newton Heath in July 1964 (BR Database) or August (SLS). However, BR Database report the loco as immediately withdrawn whereas the SLS have no withdrawal date stated. Nevertheless it was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, in December 1964.



B17 61652 Darlington awaiting duty at Kings Cross on 14th June 1958. The SLS report the loco as allocated to Colwick at least from October 1946. BR Database then show it as allocated to Cambridge in December 1950 and withdrawn in September 1959. Yeadons advise it was scrapped at Doncaster Works and WHTS that it was seen there in November 1959 although BR Database give a scrapping date of September 1959.



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

It seems unusual to see a horsebox at St Pancras, not really racing territory then or now.

45564 Leeds Holbeck 25/7/53, wdn w/e 18/7/64 after paper transfer to Newton Heath 7/64. Irwell and Longworth agree.
61652 Leicester 2/4/36, New England 26/5/40, Gorton 10/6/42, Sheffield 11/7/44, Colwick 20/10/46, Cambridge 3/12/50, Wdn 17/9/59.

 

[40057]

What do people make of the Mk1 coach behind 45564?

I’m looking at the drop light in the door. Early type door with small radius corners to the window, but with what appears to be a hood of some kind over the top of the window opening. I was not aware of such a structure being fitted to Mk1s but the photograph appears unambiguous.

 

[timbowales]

What do people make of the Mk1 coach behind 45564?

I’m looking at the drop light in the door. Early type door with small radius corners to the window, but with what appears to be a hood of some kind over the top of the window opening. I was not aware of such a structure being fitted to Mk1s but the photograph appears unambiguous.

I'm not sure that it is a Mk1? Could be late LMS?

 

[40057]

I'm not sure that it is a Mk1? Could be late LMS?

I am sure it’s a Mk1. Nothing at all to suggest otherwise except for the weird projecting thing over the top of the drop light in the door.

 

[Dave Holt]

OK, nothing to do with oil firing, but i still wonder why the loco was setting out an a (presumably) reasonable length journey with no coal visible in the tender.
Dave.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Continuing with the Butlin's Express - a photo of one of these heading north behind B1 61364 near Potters Bar appeared earlier in this thread in post #1559.

And in relation to the latest Butlin's Express behind 61302.

It appears the coal is lying flat or low in the tender as the train is nearing the end of it's journey at KX.

The sun is almost overhead and the early afternoon shadows are only just starting to appear on the moving train. With this, the bunker rear is only just starting to come into shadow merging with the end of the coach while the coal remains in full sun. I've annotated this crop with a dotted white line to show the outline of the bunker rear.




....and if your peer long enough you can make out a face.....

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks, Martin, for the better particulars for the Jubilee and B17. As for that horsebox... However, please remember that we had a picture of a calf crate at Kings Cross. Perhaps the horsebox was for a police or army horse.

An interesting question about the Mk 1 coach, @40057 and thanks for your follow up, Tim @timbowales . Personally I'm in no position to make a judgement.

That's an up train to Kings Cross, Dave @Dave Holt so it could get to the destination from Hornsey almost on coal dust. And well remembered about the earlier picture, Dave @Yorkshire Dave . The tender of that loco is well loaded for sure. Your comments about the more recent photo are appreciated but I'm not sure about the "face in the tender"... It may be the ghost of a driver long gone.

A3 60048 Doncaster awaiting duty at Kings Cross on 14th June 1958. This has been seen before, for example in posts #2260, #2953 and #4083. This was one of its first turns since freshly allocated to Kings Cross in June 1958. It then moved to Grantham in February 1959, New England in October 1962 and back to Grantham in April 1963 where it was withdrawn in October the same year. (SLS). The now sadly defunct Rail UK refers to a withdrawal date of September 1963 and disposal at Doncaster Works the same month.



N2 0-6-2T 69592 emerging from The Drain at Kings Cross on a local train to Welwyn Garden City on 14th June 1958. This loco had been allocated to Kings Cross since at least 1948 (BR Database) and was withdrawn in September 1961 (BR Database and SLS). The SLS further report that it was seen intact in the scrap yard at Doncaster Works on 1st October 1961 although there is no reference to a precise date of scrapping. That would have been a perfect shot if the camera had been pointed a bit lower.



One of those “should I or should I not show this” photos but in view of the discussions attached to some of the similar previous postings I’m going ahead. Princess Coronation 46247 entering Euston on The Ulster Express on 14th June 1958. Look at all those train spotters! This loco was previously in post #3787. It had been a Camden engine since building but transferred to Carlisle Kingmoor from June 1961 (SLS). It was ultimately withdrawn from Kingmoor in May 1963 (SLS) and was scrapped by the end of July 1963 at Crewe Works. (Rail UK).



Of particular interest to me is this A3, 60064 Tagalie, which I saw at Kings Cross. It was one of the first to be withdrawn so never received smoke deflectors. I built a 7mm model from the DJH kit which came to me with a corridor tender and as the loco was paired with a LNER non corridor tender when I saw it and which I knew I could buy from David Andrews that’s exactly what I did. Here it’s on an up express at Hornsey on 14th June 1958. It was allocated to Doncaster from July 1950 and moved to Grantham in July 1959 where it was withdrawn in September 1961 (SLS) – well, not strictly true as the SLS report it as going to Doncaster Works for repair and being cut up instead. It was seen by the SLS on the trip when they recorded 69592 above but on the Stripping Road at Doncaster on 1st October 1961 so it’s safe to assume that it was scrapped in the same month. An N2 0-6-2T, possibly 69498, to the right of the frame apparently collecting a local train from the sidings.



Brian



.

 

[Lyndhurstman]

These last are lovely. I do like a B17. And the wagons behind are of interest, too. As are coal tubs.

It seems unusual to see a horsebox at St Pancras, not really racing territory then or now.

45564 Leeds Holbeck 25/7/53, wdn w/e 18/7/64 after paper transfer to Newton Heath 7/64. Irwell and Longworth agree.
61652 Leicester 2/4/36, New England 26/5/40, Gorton 10/6/42, Sheffield 11/7/44, Colwick 20/10/46, Cambridge 3/12/50, Wdn 17/9/59.

Re the horsebox; I thought so too. Interesting. I've heard racing described as "the sport of kings" so maybe a Jubilee was apt. It was a different world, back then, for sure.

Cheers
Jan

 

[AJC]

The wagons behind 60048 tell a little story - the van (and I really could be more on top of LMS diagrams), is one of the relatively early varieties with the corrugated ends, horizontal planks and internal framing on an 8 shoe AVB chassis. That's in quite good order and possibly in use for loco consumables supplies. The LNER six-plank is probably of similar vintage, but a lot more basic, and with barely a fleck of paint. Behind the loco, however, is at least three, and probably four, brand new fitted 16 ton minerals. They don't look to be freshly into service, because the underframes have already got some grime on them, but they seem to have managed to stick together for a spell, which is a nice feature of that period.

Adam

 

[Dave Holt]

Yes, not much coal required to reach KX. Should have read the caption more carefully!
Dave.

 

[AndyB]

I don't know if the little narrow gauge wagons at Kings X have appeared in previous pages (was I asleep at the back of the class?)


Mickoo has previously mentioned the limited coaling facility in post #2150.
We can see the single NG line on NLS maps - feeding the (Stothert & Pitt?) coaling stage which can be seen in img3468 & img3469.


Anyone know what gauge it was?
Were the tubs pushed along by hand or was there a windlass?

Andy

 

[Martin Shaw]

Interestingly 60064 as 2563 was the first NB Loco built A1 named William Whitelaw after the LNER Chairman. The name eventually went on A4 then numbered 4462 in 1941 to mark the retirement of the chairman, and the A3 was named Tagalie, unsurprisingly after a racehorse, one of only six fillies to win the Derby. The locomotive was allocated to a Scottish shed from new until Doncaster 2/7/50, Grantham 14/6/59, wdn 4/9/61 beyond repair.

Willie Yeadon has 69592 wdn 23/9/61, into Doncaster for cutting up same date.

Martin