Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

Barry37

Western Thunderer
Hello

Me and my wagon fixation again.... Moses. the tablets, please..

That second wagon in from the left; painted metalwork and bare wood? I'm not sure. But another one for the collective calumny that is Watkins Wharf to "have a go" at.

Cheers

Jan
It's an ex-LMS wagon to D1666 – M 1345xx. The paint on the metalwork usually goes first (going by photos), so the way round on that wagon is unusual. It may have had extensive re-planking, which is, perhaps, equally unusual for a wood underframe wagon built during 1923-30.*
The curb rail may still have paint, or just be lighter-coloured timber.
* Though there doesn't seem to be any trace of large "L M S" on the planks, that it would have had when new.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Adam @AJC and Martin @Martin Shaw. Thank you for pulling me up on my ups and downs. Again I'm working from Tim's original notes and haven't spent the necessary time checking the descriptions against the photos. Mea culpa. I'll correct the descriptions later by was of an edit. And David @Yorkshire Dave, thank you for the full description of that wagon... Added to the documents attached to the photo.

Also, re-the LMS wagon, thanks Barry @Barry37 for more and better particulars. All included in the full descriptions.

Let's see how many of these confuse the up with the down etc...

One of the named B1s, 61006 Blackbuck, at Witham on up empty stock on 28th March 1959. It was allocated to Parkeston Quay in February 1959 and the final allocation was March in November 1959 where it was withdrawn on 22nd September 1963. (SLS). It was sold to Kings, Norwich for scrap in January 1964 although there’s another note advising that the loco was physically scrapped in the same month. (BR Database). Possible, I guess, if the loco was already on its way to Kings at the time it was sold but pretty unlikely.

img3753 TM Neg Strip 13 61006 Witham Essex up empty stock 28 Mar 59 copyright Final.jpg

B17 61663 Everton on shed at Colchester on 28th March 1959. Colchester was home shed from December 1958, then the loco moved to Stratford in December 1959 and was withdrawn in February 1960. (SLS). It was scrapped later in the same month (BR Database) at Doncaster Works (Yeadons) where it was observed on 28th February. (WHTS).

img3754 TM Neg Strip 13 61663 on shed Colchester 28 Mar 59 copyright Final.jpg

B1 61000 Springbok on the 9.56 Colchester to Clacton train at Colchester on 28th March 1959. 61000 was allocated to Colchester from January 1957, moved to March in November 1959, Doncaster in December the same year and finally Colwick in July 1960. (SLS). It was withdrawn in March 1962 (SLS) and scrapped at Doncaster Works later the same month. (BR Database).

img3755 TM Neg Strip 13 61000 9.56 Colchester-Clacton Colchester 28 Mar 59 copyright Final.jpg

With a goods train on the down main at Colchester was J20/1 64681 on 18th March 1959. The loco had been allocated to Stratford since December 1947 and was withdrawn in November 1960. (SLS). It was scrapped at Stratford a month later. (Yeadons).

img3756 TM Neg Strip 13 64681 down main goods Colchester 28 Mar 59 copyright Final.jpg

J15 65470 on an up local goods at Colchester on 28th March 1959. The loco was on Colchester’s allocation and had been since November 1950. It was withdrawn in December 1959 (SLS) and scrapped in January 1960 (BR Database) at Stratford (Yeadons).

img3757 TM Neg Strip 13 65470 up local goods Colchester 28 Mar 59 copyright Final.jpg

Brian
 

Lyndhurstman

Western Thunderer
It's an ex-LMS wagon to D1666 – M 1345xx. The paint on the metalwork usually goes first (going by photos), so the way round on that wagon is unusual. It may have had extensive re-planking, which is, perhaps, equally unusual for a wood underframe wagon built during 1923-30.*
The curb rail may still have paint, or just be lighter-coloured timber.
* Though there doesn't seem to be any trace of large "L M S" on the planks, that it would have had when new.
Hi Barry
Thanks for the details. I know that BR in the early 50s outshopped Opens in bare wood with grey (and bauxite) metalwork. But as it's a wooden underframe (as you note) I'm still as baffled as ever :)

Cheers

Jan
 

AJC

Western Thunderer
A couple of interesting wagons in the latest batch: behind 65470 is one of the BR insulated vans in rather grubby white (dia. 1/251, 250 built). We’ve had a few of these earlier.

There’s also a nearly new minfit next to ‘Everton’ - 8 shoe brakes, Dowty buffers (as most seem to have had). Probably just muck, but the buffer shanks almost look as though they’re body colour - freight stock red - rather than black. I’ve not knowingly seen that on a minfit, but this was something seen on some fitted vans and on some brake vans.

Adam
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Just a note on the OHLE seen in the Colchester photos.

The GE electrification scheme from Liverpool St to Shenfield and then on to Chelmsford, Colchester, Clacton and Walton-on-the-Naze is more complex than some. Initially started by the LNER and then as part of the 1955 Modernisation and Re-Equipment of British Railways report (not to be confused with the infamous 1963 The Reshaping of British Railways part 1 and part 2 (Maps) report). The electrification dates and voltages are:

Liverpool St - Shenfield (original LNER scheme delayed by WWII)
1949-1959 1,500V DC
1960-1979 6.25kV AC
1979- 25kV AC

Shenfield - Chelmsford
1962-1979 6.25kV AC
1979- 25kV AC

Chelmsford - Colchester
1962- 25kV AC

Colchester - Clacton - Walton-on-the-Naze
1959- 25kV AC

Dates were found here Electrification dates. I think the 1960 and 1962 are the start dates of regular train services although the infrastructure was in place in 1959. Services did not begin in earnest until late 1962 as they were delayed by the late delivery of the AM9 (class 309) units.

Which explains why in the photo of B1 61000 Springbok below the Clacton service is steam hauled although the wires are in place.

B1 61000 Springbok on the 9.56 Colchester to Clacton train at Colchester on 28th March 1959. 61000 was allocated to Colchester from January 1957, moved to March in November 1959, Doncaster in December the same year and finally Colwick in July 1960. (SLS). It was withdrawn in March 1962 (SLS) and scrapped at Doncaster Works later the same month. (BR Database).

img3755 TM Neg Strip 13 61000 9.56 Colchester-Clacton Colchester 28 Mar 59 copyright Final.jpg
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
A nice treatise on the history of GER electrification, Dave @Yorkshire Dave and also thanks for refining the geography. Your comments carry through to this post too.

Adam @AJC - thanks for identifying more wagons...
B17 61668 Bradford City coupled to Ivatt Flying Pig 43153 going on shed at Colchester on 28th March 1959. 61668 was a Colchester engine from December 1958 and moved to Stratford in December 1959 where it lasted until August 1960. (SLS). It was cut up in the same month (BR Database) at Stratford Works (WHTS).

43153 had just been allocated to Colchester at the time of the photo, in the four weeks ending 21st March. It moved to Stratford in December the same year, Lincoln in October and New England in November 1960 and finally Staveley Barrow Hill where it was withdrawn in June 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped in September 1965 (BR Database) at Ward’s, Killamarsh, Sheffield where it was observed intact on 17th September 1965. (RO).

img3758 TM Neg Strip 13 61668 & 43153 coupled on shed Colchester 28 Mar 59 copyright Final.jpg

Seen previously in Post #154 is J15 65473 which was based at Colchester from May 1947, went to Stratford in December 1959 and was withdrawn in April 1960. (SLS). Here it's on Colchester shed. It was observed in store at Southend Victoria at the beginning of March 1960 and at Stratford Works in April where it was then scrapped. (Railway Observer).

img3759 TM Neg Strip 13 65473 on shed Colchester 28 Mar 59 copyright Final.jpg

Britannia 70003 John Bunyan on an up Norwich stopping train passing Colchester Shed on 28th March 1959. We saw this in posts #2645, #2693 and #4464. 70003 was a Stratford engine from March 1951 and moved to Norwich Thorpe in February 1959, then March in August 1961 before migrating to Carlisle Kingmoor in November or December 1963 where it was withdrawn in March 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Campbells, Airdrie, in November 1967. (BR Database).

img3760 TM Neg Strip 13 70003 up Norwich stopper Colchester 28 Mar 59 copyright Final.jpg

Britannia 70030 William Wordsworth on the down Norfolkman at Colchester on 28th March 1959. This was a Norwich Thorpe loco from February 1959 which went to March in July 1961, then Crewe North in July 1961, Crewe South in June and Carlisle Upperby in August 1965 and withdrawal in June 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at T Ward, Beighton, in October 1966. (BR Database).

img3761 TM Neg Strip 13 70030 up Norfolkman Colchester 28 Mar 59 copyright Final.jpg

Brian
 
Last edited:

Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
The usual deviations between sources,

61668 Bradford City Leicester 28/4/37, Stratford 8/9/39, Doncaster 6/3/40, Stratford 23/4/40, March 21/11/42, Ipswich 31/10/43, Colchester 6/10/47, Ipswich 4/11/47, Stratford 1/2/53, Colchester 26/5/55, Stratford 16/10/55, Colchester 14/12/58, Stratford 29/11/59, Wdn 22/8/60.
Yeadon & Irwell Press.

Irwell Press doesn't have the Colchester allocation for 43153 but it does for 43152, whilst Longworth has both. Both locos were allocated to Melton Constable until closure of the M&GN so I fear Irwell has it wrong, therefore,
43153 Melton Constable 4/12/51, Colchester 1/3/59, Stratford 6/12/59, Lincoln 18/9/60, New England 20/11/60, Barrow Hill 22/9/63, Wdn 20/6/65.
Martin
 

Barry37

Western Thunderer
A couple of interesting wagons in the latest batch: behind 65470 is one of the BR insulated vans in rather grubby white (dia. 1/251, 250 built). We’ve had a few of these earlier.

There’s also a nearly new minfit next to ‘Everton’ - 8 shoe brakes, Dowty buffers (as most seem to have had). Probably just muck, but the buffer shanks almost look as though they’re body colour - freight stock red - rather than black. I’ve not knowingly seen that on a minfit, but this was something seen on some fitted vans and on some brake vans.

Adam
The buffer shank do look as though they are body colour. There are a couple of Minfits in published photos that appear to be like that, too. David Larkin's photos show various unfitted minerals that have the headstocks and buffer shanks painted in grey body colour (which is easier to identify in B & W!)
 

Paulatg

Member
I may be able to help a little with information about Colchester, which may be of interest.

25kv electrification works (which was a trial) between Colchester and Clacton/Walton-on-Naze commenced towards the end of 1957 and by April 1958, the masts were up, but no wires. Trial electric services between Colchester and Alresford commenced on 5th February 1959 and trial running to Clacton/Walton-on-Naze on 16th March 1959, but the official opening of the electric train service between Colchester and Clacton & Walton was not until 13th April 1959, as seen here (photo credit ??).

Colchester shed closed a little over six months later on 2nd November 1959.

Emu's to operate the Clacton/Walton branch would have arrived from Ilford emu depot after initial service checks, loco hauled (perhaps Tim photographed such workings?) as the branch was electrified in isolation from the rest of the network.
FB_IMG_15568151371779695.jpg
 
Last edited:

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thank you for the fuller particulars of the electrification, @Paulatg. Duly added to the package of data for those photos.

Class 2 2-6-0 46469 arriving on a Cambridge train at Colchester on 28th March 1959. The loco had been allocated to Colchester as early as July 1951, moving to Parkeston Quay in November 1959, Cambridge in February 1961 and March in June 1962 where it was withdrawn in the following August. (SLS). It was scrapped at Darlington (RO) in September.

img3762 TM Neg Strip 13 46469 arriving on Cambridge train Colchester 28 Mar 59 copyright Final.jpg

B17 61668 Bradford City seen very recently in post #4607 at Colchester starting the 11.00 am local train to Ipswich from Colchester on 28th March 1959. It was a Stratford engine from November 1955 and moved to Colchester in December 1958 and back to Stratford in December 1959 where it lasted until August 1960. (SLS). It was cut up in the same month (BR Database) at Stratford Works (WHTS).

img3763 TM Neg Strip 13 61668 starting 11.00am local to Ipswich Colchester 28 Mar 59 copyright...jpg

Britannia 70039 Sir Christopher Wren on an up Clacton to London fast train at Witham on 28th March 1959. Seen previously in posts #2017, #4126 and #4595 the loco lived at Norwich Thorpe from February 1959, then Immingham from the end of 1960 and in December 1963 went to Carlisle Upperby ending up at Carlisle Kingmoor in March 1964 where it was withdrawn in September 1967. (SLS). It then went to J Mc Williams at Shettleston where it was scrapped by the end of January 1968. (BR Database).

img3765 TM Neg Strip 13 70039 up Clacton-London fast Witham Essex 28 Mar 59 copyright Final NEW.jpg

We’ve seen this loco recently in post #4468. B1 61361 at Witham Station on an up freight train on 28th March 1958. The loco was allocated to Colchester in January 1957, moving to Parkeston Quay in December 1959 and finally Colwick in December 1960 where it was withdrawn in December 1965. (SLS). It then went to Garnham, Harris and Elton at Chesterfield for disposal which was completed in March 1966. (BR Database).

img3766 TM Neg Strip 13 61361 up freight Witham Essex 28 Mar 59  copyright Final NEW.jpg

A new Britannia to these pages is 70008 Black Prince here on a down Clacton fast train at Witham on 28th March 1959. It went to Norwich Thorpe when new in April 1951 (BR Database), then March in September 1961 before migrating to Carlisle Kingmoor in December 1963 where it was withdrawn in January 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Campbells, Airdrie, in May 1967. (BR Database).

img3767 TM Neg Strip 13 70008 down Clacton fast Witham Essex 28 Mar 59 copyright Final.jpg

Brian
 

Paulatg

Member
Britannia 70003 John Bunyan on an up Norwich stopping train passing Colchester Shed on 28th March 1959. We saw this in posts #2645, #2693 and #4464. 70003 was a Stratford engine from March 1951 and moved to Norwich Thorpe in February 1959, then March in August 1961 before migrating to Carlisle Kingmoor in November or December 1963 where it was withdrawn in March 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Campbells, Airdrie, in November 1967. (BR Database).

View attachment 232757


Brian
To the left of the J15 is Colchester breakdown train road. Information I have regarding the breakdown train is as follows:

Colchester Breakdown Train.
LNER Period
• Tool Van 961515 ex GE 264 Diagram 219 formerly EX16, built 2/1886, converted 12/1928, withdrawn 11/1942.
• Mess and Tool Van 961520 ex GE 718, LNER 6460, Diagram 518, built 9/1896, converted 2/1940, withdrawn c. 1945.

Early BR Period
• Tool Van 961515 ex LD&ECR (GCR) 51842 6-wheel 34’ brake third, built Ashbury 1896, converted 10/1945, withdrawn 8/11/1958.
• Mess and Packing Van 961520 ex GER 6-wheel 945 brake third 62332, Diagram 533, converted 3/1947, no withdrawal date.
• Sheldon Mk2 swan neck 15-ton crane 961604 to Colchester 11/1947. Apparently the GNR crane was rarely used and I understand it was in poor condition and reluctant to steam. It went during 1955, or perhaps a little earlier, but there are photos of the crane at Stratford Works dated 20 December 1959.
• Crane Runner 961658 converted ex GER double bolster.
• Guard Truck 961657 converted ex GER Diagram 17 high sided wagon, which seemed to linger at Colchester for a few years after the crane had gone.

Post c1955 (seen in your photo)
After the steam crane departed to Stratford Works, two carriages were provided:

• 320380, a former GER 10 compartment suburban 3rd, LNER 60396.
• 320147 an ex GCR 50ft clerestory, LNER 583 built in 1904.

I've built a 4mm model of the early BR period breakdown train.

Your following photo of 70030 is on a down, not up working.

Paul
 

76043

Western Thunderer
Does anyone have any idea if that Cambridge to Colchester train is via Sudbury or Bury St Edmunds?
Cheers
Tony
 

James Spooner

Western Thunderer
Does anyone have any idea if that Cambridge to Colchester train is via Sudbury or Bury St Edmunds?
Cheers
Tony
Purely a guess but the Ivatt 2MTs seem to have been photographed mostly on the Colne Valley route (so coming off the Sudbury line at Chappel and going to Cambridge via Halstead), largely because of the low route availability on the old CV&HR. My guess would therefore be neither Bury nor Sudbury, but Halstead.

Nigel
 

readingtype

Active Member
It's a DB Gmbhs 51 fährbootwagen.

Most of the UK-Continental rail freight traffic went via Harwich-Zeebrugge rather than Dover-Dunkerque.
I think it may in fact be the pre-war equivalent, the Saarbrücken, later Gbh 21 (and finally Hfk 310). We see the end with no brake platform -- the difference would be obvious if the wagon was running the other way around. If I am right, then being a much older wagon it's a touch more exotic than the Gmbhs 51 from 1953 (if not exotic by the standards of this thread). The 300 wagons to this diagram were built 1926-8 by the DRG and all withdrawn by the end of 1968 (source: Carstens & Ossig, Güterwagen, Band 1 Gedeckte Wagen).

Ben
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
I think it may in fact be the pre-war equivalent, the Saarbrücken, later Gbh 21 (and finally Hfk 310). We see the end with no brake platform -- the difference would be obvious if the wagon was running the other way around. If I am right, then being a much older wagon it's a touch more exotic than the Gmbhs 51 from 1953 (if not exotic by the standards of this thread). The 300 wagons to this diagram were built 1926-8 by the DRG and all withdrawn by the end of 1968 (source: Carstens & Ossig, Güterwagen, Band 1 Gedeckte Wagen).

Saarbrücken didn't come up in my original Fährbootwagen search but having another look I would say this is a Trier rather than a Saarbrücken Gbh 21 Fährbootwagen. I've come across this with the plated vent at the non-brake platform end. Güterwagen der Austauschbauart - Wikiwand

Saarbrücken (Gfkhs) was a Fährbootkühlwagen (refrigerated van).
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thank you Paul @Paulatg for the detail about the breakdown trains and their location in the photos. In fact I suspect we can see part of one of the vehicles in the photo of 70003 - and I've corrected the description to correct the direction of travel. I really don't know my ups from my downs! You remind me that in the loft insulation is a kit for the Cowans & Sheldon Mk2 swan neck 15-ton crane. I even have plans for the match truck. Will it even get built I ask? I'll take this opportunity to thank you , Tony @Osgood for your very kind comment on Paul's thread but without the raw material none of this would be possible. And having contacted Tim's wife just to thank her for her message to me and tell her that Tim's photos are used I have a reply to say that "makes me so happy".

Moving on, Tony @76043 and Nigel @James Spooner, thanks for extra discussion material within the thread.

Then Ben @readingtype and Dave @Yorkshire Dave - interesting stuff about the probable parentage of that wagon.

Class B17 61611 Raynham Hall on an up passenger train at Witham on 30th March 1959. At the time it was allocated to Ipswich where it had been since January 1957, ending up at Norwich Thorpe in August 1959 and withdrawal in the following October. (SLS). It entered Doncaster Works for disposal on 14th October 1959 and was observed there on 21st November (WHTS) although BR Database records a scrapping date of October 1959.

img3770 TM Neg Strip 13 61611 up passenger fast Witham Essex 30 Mar 59 copyright Final.jpg

Original Battle of Britain Class 34078 222 Squadron at Brighton Shed on 4th April 1959. It is recorded by the SLS as reinstated at Stewarts Lane in December 1954 but there’s no record of when it went in to store. In June 1959 it moved to Bricklayers Arms and then BR Database shows the loco going to Exmouth Junction in February 1961. Both the SLS and BR Database show withdrawal in September 1964. It went to Bird’s, Morriston, Swansea for disposal (WHTS) and then moved to Bird’s, Binea where it was seen on 13th December 1964. (LCGB). It was scrapped at some time in the same month. (BR Database).

img3771 TM Neg Strip 13 34078 Brighton Shed 4 Apr 59 copyright Final NEW.jpg

Brighton Shed on 4th April 1959 and P Class 0-6-0T 31556. This had been at Brighton since May 1949 and was withdrawn in June 1961. (SLS). It has an interesting history including a time in France between April 1915 and October 1916. For further details see
https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/31556-secr-753-rod-5753-sr-556-sr-a556-sr-1556-br-31556/ It went to the K & ESR in 1970.

img3772 TM Neg Strip 13 31556 Brighton Shed 4 Apr 59 copyright Final NEW.jpg

Original West Country 34008 Padstow at Brighton Station on 4th April 1959. This was one of the locos that was rebuilt, in this case between 12th May and 25th June 1960. The loco was allocated to Brighton in October 1958, Eastleigh in September 1962 and Nine Elms in June 1966 where it was withdrawn in June 1967. (SLS). On 16th October 1967 Padstow was stored at United Wagon Co, Newport along with other withdrawn locos from the SR. (SLS). It was cut up at Buttigieg’s, Newport by 25th September 1968. (RO).

img3773 TM Neg Strip 13 34008 Brighton Stn 4 Apr 59 copyright Final.jpg

Brian
 

Paulatg

Member
Hi Paul

The ex Colchester breakdown carriage got around, like the Colchester Signalling Works Engineer Colchester carriage did.

This is a photo neg I acquired some years ago, but the vehicle appears on your site and at various locations, including Ipswich and Norwich !

I've also built a model of the carriage , yet to be lettered.FB_IMG_1641929215988.jpg20231108_101450.jpg
 
Top