Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Martin Shaw]

We have had a considerable number of Tim's pics around Holloway North and South which to the uninitiated was a complex area with many running lines and a forest of signals which aren't always obvious. To assist me and anyone else who is perplexed I have been given permission to post the 4 Holloway signal box diagrams which should help identify things. If anyone has any questions about signalling matters that arise from the diagrams I will do my best to answer them.

Most importantly please note that these four diagrams are posted with the explicit permission of and copyright retained by John Hinson.

The Signal Box – EVERYTHING ABOUT BRITISH RAILWAY SIGNALLING

signalbox.org

 

[simond]

I can see why it is so, but the transposition of London from right to left caused a few moments‘ confusion…

 

[mickoo]

Perfect, I'd got three of the four but it confirms the only up/down crossover is at Holloway North which means all of Tims cross over movements must have been done at Belle Isle.

The Trio of engines start at Point A, they head back to London by crossing over from te Up Goods to the Up Slow and the presumable cross back over at Belle Isle, then travel out of London on the Down fast where they are next seen crossing over to the Down Slow (point B) and then maybe Down Slow 2 point D or staying on 1 to point C.






The only other option is to take the blue route and cross to the Goods & Mineral, over the fly over which cross all main lines and then come back out on Goods & Mineral and end at point X. Clearly they didn't take that route as at point B they're crossing from fast to slow.

I still cannot work out how the express engines or WD even got to point A from Top shed goods or Kings X Passenger because almost every signaled route out of the cross could put them at point B with much less conflict and hassle.

A quick read of some forums posts on the site confirms that the platforms were used for motor-rail services until the early 70's

 

[mickoo]

I can see why it is so, but the transposition of London from right to left caused a few moments‘ confusion…

The diagrams are laid out as the signalman would see the track when looking out the front window, thus with boxes on each side of the main the track layouts will be flipped.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

What I still cannot work out is how the engines got to the Up Goods backing out from Kings Cross, they pass the required crossover at Belle Isle to get to Holloway South Up.

Could these engines have originated from trains which only worked as far as Finsbury Park sidings/carriage sidings.

 

[mickoo]

Could these engines have originated from trains which only worked as far as Finsbury Park sidings/carriage sidings.

Well that's what I'm beginning to believe, the A2 and V2 never came from the cross at all, but somewhere north and joined the WD to do the cross over and head to Hornsey.

The only possible fly in the soup is the solo WD which is cleared to head down to Belle Isle on I think the Down Slow, I'm not 100% sure what route signal 26 is referring to, either the left hand portal which is the Goods & Mineral on the fly over, or the 2nd portal which is the cross over to the Up Slow.



If you zoom in the switch (28) is set ahead and the WD looks like it's in mid gear, possibly waiting for the A2 and V2 to couple up?

 

[Martin Shaw]

I don't mind admitting I have been mightily confused by light engine movements in the Hollway area however I wonder if Mick has hit upon something. The WD above has a tail light so it's arrived where it is independently, and I think it's on its way to top shed via Goods and Mineral Junction. The trio of A2/V2/WD have reversed from Kings X somwhere and are passing Holloway South in the down direction to crossover at H North and proceed to Top Shed as img1790 shows.

I need to check whether Copenhage Junc had closed by the time of the photos which would make access to G&M from the down direction impossible or possibly works associated with the closure of top shed were impacting on movements. Ignore this, it closed in 1967.

Of the signals on the bracket, the left hand doll applies to the up coal line (to the left of the WD), top arm to the up goods, lower arm to the up slow. The right hand doll applies to the up goods where the WD is standing, the arms apply as before, therefore the road is cleared (No 26) to continue along the up goods to Goods and Mineral Junction and hence top shed.
A bit more guesswork I fear.
Martin

Big PS:
I have just found out that Hornsey shed closed to steam in 1961 which probably explains WDs going to Top Shed for turning. With that info it might be posssible to make a bit more sense of everything. Another thought, would the WD backing out with the others have possibly been on a strange ecs working, seems possible since we've seen an Ivatt 4 doing same.

 

[oldravendale]

Wow! Thank you Martin. That opens up the opportunity to make more considered sense of those photos and it's great to see the options being discussed. I think you can be comfortable about respect of the copyright on WT.

Just one question - if Hornsey shut to steam in 1961 why are locos going there for turning in 1963? Would that be because they are coaling at Kings Cross and just using the Hornsey turntable - it's unlikely to have been taken out in the succeeding two years.

Apologies for the absence of new posts from me at the moment. Simply down to being committed to other events and that'll continue for a while, although I might find a few hours on the occasional day. There's certainly lots more to come.

Brian

 

[mickoo]

Of the signals on the bracket, the left hand doll applies to the up coal line (to the left of the WD), top arm to the up goods, lower arm to the up slow. The right hand doll applies to the up goods where the WD is standing, the arms apply as before, therefore the road is cleared (No 26) to continue along the up goods to Goods and Mineral Junction and hence top shed.
A bit more guesswork I fear.
Martin

I'm reading that the upper arms on each post refer to the route straight ahead and the lower arms to the crossing.

Left hand post refers to the up coal/goods, right pole to the up slow as noted.

Thus if 26 is pulled it should signify heading straight on under the bridge and join the up slow. That is of course assuming that straight ahead is the primary route, looking at the track naming it may well not be. It may well be that the goods line jogs left under the bridge to join the terminating coal road.

The signals all look the same size so there's no hint which is the main and which is the diverging route, I would have expected the diverging routes to have smaller arms?

I've also a gut feeling the two WD's are not the same engine, there's a lot more coal in the solo movement one than the trio one and even if taken hours later they wouldn't have emptied that amount to make it not visible I'd wager.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The only possible fly in the soup is the solo WD which is cleared to head down to Belle Isle on I think the Down Slow, I'm not 100% sure what route signal 26 is referring to, either the left hand portal which is the Goods & Mineral on the fly over, or the 2nd portal which is the cross over to the Up Slow.

I think the WD arrived from (possibly) a Finsbury Park terminating service and is it's way south for whatever reason. Only to reappear later in the day to join or be joined by the A2 and V2.

As Brian indicated this is an early shot in the negative reel (posts # 2177, 78 and 79). Tim is on the 'Up' side of the tracks during the morning then we see the WD later in the afternoon after Tim has crossed the tracks to the 'Down' side.

 

[mickoo]

I think the WD arrived from (possibly) a Finsbury Park terminating service and is it's way south for whatever reason. Only to reappear later in the day to join or be joined by the A2 and V2.

As Brian indicated this is an early shot in the negative reel (posts # 2177, 78 and 79). Tim is on the 'Up' side of the tracks during the morning then we see the WD later in the afternoon after Tim has crossed the tracks to the 'Down' side.

It could also have come from Hollow North Up sidings. I've no idea what that industry behind the trio move is, but it looks a lot like a gas production works or power generating station and those wooden towers are similar to coke ovens which I think may be used for town gas production. They could also be water cooling towers as well.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Just one question - if Hornsey shut to steam in 1961 why are locos going there for turning in 1963? Would that be because they are coaling at Kings Cross and just using the Hornsey turntable - it's unlikely to have been taken out in the succeeding two years.

Although the shed closed in 1961 the turntable may well have remained in situ for a number of years and later used for possibly turning DMU driving trailers. As an example the turntable at Marylebone station remained for years for this purpose until the DMU depot was closed and moved to Aylesbury around 1990-92.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

It could also have come from Hollow North Up sidings. I've no idea what that industry behind the trio move is, but it looks a lot like a gas production works or power generating station and those wooden towers are similar to coke ovens which I think may be used for town gas production. They could also be water cooling towers as well.

Done a bit of digging and the three main industries here were: The Star Brush Works (household brush manufacturer), The Electric Lighting Station (power station) and a Provender Mill.

 

[Martin Shaw]

I'm reading that the upper arms on each post refer to the route straight ahead and the lower arms to the crossing.

Left hand post refers to the up coal/goods, right pole to the up slow as noted.

Thus if 26 is pulled it should signify heading straight on under the bridge and join the up slow. That is of course assuming that straight ahead is the primary route, looking at the track naming it may well not be. It may well be that the goods line jogs left under the bridge to join the terminating coal road.

The signals all look the same size so there's no hint which is the main and which is the diverging route, I would have expected the diverging routes to have smaller arms?

Sorry Mick but you have misinterpreted matters. As a principle where arms are arranged vertically the rule is top/left most and so on down the post. Since in this particular location both arms are the same size on each of the dolls so there is no divergence in signalling terms, both routes have the same status. The top arm in both cases reads to the up goods, the lower arms to the up slow, it would seem that with all facing points having FPL's and despite the names the goods lines could probably be easily used for passneger trains if necessary, although I'll have to check the relevant appendix. The other thing to beware of is that even though it's a bracket signal, it is effectively two signal for two different lines, there were a lot of these around between the X and Hitchin.
Regards
Martin

 

[Martin Shaw]

Although the shed closed in 1961 the turntable may well have remained in situ for a number of years and later used for possibly turning DMU driving trailers.

Indeed Dave, from a photo online it appears to be still there today however the ER were busy building the DMU maintenance depot at the time so it may have still been usable, really don't know.
Regards
Martin

 

[mickoo]

Sorry Mick but you have misinterpreted matters. As a principle where arms are arranged vertically the rule is top/left most and so on down the post. Since in this particular location both arms are the same size on each of the dolls so there is no divergence in signalling terms, both routes have the same status. The top arm in both cases reads to the up goods, the lower arms to the up slow, it would seem that with all facing points having FPL's and despite the names the goods lines could probably be easily used for passneger trains if necessary, although I'll have to check the relevant appendix. The other thing to beware of is that even though it's a bracket signal, it is effectively two signal for two different lines, there were a lot of these around between the X and Hitchin.
Regards
Martin

We’ll it’s a good job I’m not an engine driver as I read that as heading straight on and not diverging to the left and straight on leads to join the up slow. I get the principle of the two equal height post being for separate lines.

On the left hand post the top arm is for straight on and the lower to diverge right so why is the right one reversed in that the top is to branch left and the lower to carry straight on.

This is how I'd read it. Each colour signal pertaining to each different route.



But your description I take as thus.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Mick
Nobody said it was logical and it is just one of those peculiarities that started from the earliest days. If you are aware of the earliest Saxby & Farmer signal boxes where the signals were located at the box and were effectively skywards extensions of the box structure there is a practical and cost limit to how many post you could have so for multiple divergent routes the arms were arranged vertically. Someone, maybe even Mr Saxby, made an arbitrary decision that top meant turn left and thus it has always been, it could have easily been the other way but in your thinking the route from the top arm would be dependent on which line you were on. Sounds suspiciously continental! It not surprisingly caused confusion so was deprecated in new work from late pre grouping days or possibly even earlier. I suspect the LNER Southern Division largely replicated former GNR practice when renewing things otherwise it all looks very old fashioned even pre war, the LNER's penury won't have helped either.
Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for posting these Brian.

After some study I wonder if there might be another negative reel for this day as for whatever reasons unknown to us there doesn't appear to be any photos of 60532 and 60854 arriving or waiting to join 90439 (img1785 and 1786). Unless, like alot of us, Tim became selective with the shots in case he ran out of film given it's relative expense at the time. .



I think the A2 in img1785 is 60532 Blue Peter as the bottom of the last digit appears straight on magnification (crop below). Unlikely to be 60523 as we saw this loco earlier in the day heading towards KX (img1794 and 1795) then later in the day backing down to KX (img1778). And 60532 has different smoke deflectors to 60523.

View attachment 186773

Dave.

Thanks for your sterling work on these images. I have the advantage, however, as I have the originals and the A2 can now be definitively stated to be 60533, Happy Knight. It appears that the A2 throughout here is the same loco. I'll change my descriptions accordingly. Confusingly a confirmed 60523 also appears in the sequence but as a single light loco.

I also suspect you are correct about the preservation of film frames in the camera in case something extraordinary came up. Tim was quite liberal in his use of film but it's doubtful even he recorded every single loco movement, particularly if he'd already photographed them previously in the day.

Further thanks, Dave, for throwing up some further possibilities which may help to explain the movements. Although at this distance in time we can't be certain I guess you, Mick and Martin have, between you, explained most of the alternatives.

I was intending to post the following photos but I've run out of time again. I'll satisfy myself for today by correcting the number of the A2 on these posts and also the info against the original negs.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Well, a bit over 2 weeks from my last posting and a month since we looked at any photos so apologies. My time has been taken up by my preparation for giving the keynote speech at the GCR's 50th Anniversary. It needed a lot of preparation and I'd not realised how much technique I'd lost since I retired nearly 20 years ago. Anyway, all done and if not quite my greatest moment at least no-one bailed out while I was speaking. I will not, however, be doing another one in a hurry.

Back to another lot of Tim's photos.

The first three are of A4 60017 Silver Fox on the down 1.15 Leeds at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963. A good view of the hole in the wall! It was still a resident of Kings Cross at the time of the photo, moving to New England in June and being withdrawn in October. (SLS). It went to Doncaster Works for disposal which was completed by the year end. (BR Database).







A nice portrait of B1 61207 light engine travelling up at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963. It was a New England engine right up to December 1963 when it was withdrawn. It went to Doncaster Works for breaking up which was completed in February 1964. (SLS).



Finally another light engine but this time 9F 92040 travelling down light engine at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963. It was a New England engine at the time, moving to Colwick in June, then Staveley (Barrow Hill) in September 1964 and finally Langwith Junction in January 1965 from where it was withdrawn the following August. It was scrapped at Drapers, Hull, in November. (SLS).



Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

'Silver Fox' always seemed to be on shed at Grantham on my occasional visits as a train-spotter a lifetime ago. If I recall correctly, at that time it was in the blue livery first used on principle passenger locos by British Railways. It was always clean and seemed in good order, as one might reasonably expect of an A4 from 'Top Shed'.

Roger