Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

I much appreciate your confirmation about the location of img039, Martin @Martin Shaw . Clearly not The Boadway to which I referred but details attached to some of the other photos in the set refer to Fortis Green - regrettably many are either out of focus or show image movement so are not suitable for this thread.

Then Tony @76043 . As you say, it's most unlikely that Tim was aware of the history of that vehicle at the time he took the photo - in fact at any time afterwards - but the appropriate references are now added to the commentary.

Barry @Barry37 - Your memory of that conductor on the Southdown 12 service brought back a happy memory for me, which was lodged in the back of my mind somewhere. When I was very small, probably around five years old, our family used to travel on the RLH bus from Kenton Library to Rayners Lane to visit an aunt and uncle. There was a favourite conductor on that route who used to show me magic tricks with coins - I still remember one of them and amaze younger relatives even now with my expertise.

Then Michael @michael080 . Thank you for the further details of the 556 class. Essential extra info for one who knows nothing of these railways.

Pete @Peter Insole . That drawing of yours is one of my favourite images and well worth reproduction here. I have a yearning for one of your drawings. However, that detail of your evening on the last week of the RTs is so worth preserving and is added to the info about RT3251. If that's a thread bomb please bomb away! It's very welcome. (And there will be more RT photos to come).

Tim @Tim Birch - Thanks for yours about the route 102 and then Dave @Yorkshire Dave - It's great to have clarification about that loco. Quite how 436 became U36 I fail to understand but as I said, Tim's writing sometimes appears to have a mind of it's own.

Three photos here of 4-8-2 498-106 on 22nd September 1992. The first is at Lubochna. The second is a run past at Strba and the third at Ruzin, also on a run past – this last one may be on 23rd rather than the 22nd September.







Stuffed and mounted this is probably an 0-6-0T and was identified as 310-513 (Budapest 497/93) at Vrutky in Czechoslovakia on 22nd September 1992



Another stuffed and mounted loco which to my eye bears a striking similarity to the 0-6-0T loco in img048 at the Pioneer Railway. This is clearly identified as U37-002 but the note advises this is a fictitious number and it’s thought to be CKD 2210/48, a 760mm gauge loco and here at Vrutky on 22nd September 1992.



Three photos here at Zvolen, Czechoslovakia on 26th September 1992 of 4-8-2 475-196.







Brian

 

[simond]

as the last photo shows the winged arrow logo, a little about Skoda here;

https://www.skodagroup.com/page/history

and something on the 475 class The World of Steam Locomotives

S

 

[40057]

Wow! Thank you for the pictures of the two 4-8-2s. My wife and I were hauled by both on a rail tour whilst on honeymoon a few years after the photos were taken. The train crew discovered we were on honeymoon and offered us to ride in the cab of 498-106 between the Hungarian border and Bratislava. The cab is huge and the mechanical stoker ensured we both got covered in coal dust.

Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Simon @simond . The history of Skoda is very interesting. I was aware that they had a long and distinguished history in heavy engineering although they are sadly mainly remembered in the UK for some truly dreadful cars a few years ago. Now the cars are essentially VW they are very good value for money. In fact, having test driven a number of vehicles including new VWs Mrs D decided in favour of a new Skoda about two years ago. The data on the loco classes is also a very decent reference.

I'm delighted the most recent photos brought back some happy memories, Martin @40057.

20th September 1992 and three photos of 4-6-2 387-043. The first is on a run past at Domousice, the second at Jovice and the last at rest on shed at Rakovnika.







A derelict 2-10-0 believed to be 556-048 at Louny Shed in Czechoslovakia on 20th September 1992.



A 2-10-0 at Nova Stra Seci on 20th September 1992. This is 534-0323 on a run past and then stationary.





Brian

 

[Dave Holt]

Some quite strange looking features on the valve gear of these lcos, compared with British practice. In particular, the expansion links look very slender (and long) and appear to be over-hung from the valve gear bracket rather than running between trunions. Generally, the valve gear rods look quite spindly and, on the 4-8-2m at least, the combination lever appear to taper from wider at the anchor link to narrower at the top. Again, opposite to British designs.
Dave.

 

[oldravendale]

That's an interesting observation, Dave @Dave Holt . I have to say I'd not been aware of that previously but I've added it to the background info.

2-10-0 556-0298 at Prague Vrsovice Shed, then the same loco at Nucice and on a run past at Karlstesn on 19th September 1992. The fourth photo is of 534-0323 which was in the post above and here it’s with 2-10-0 556-0298 at Prague on a 1000 tonne freight on 20th September 1992.









This is “No 5” – CDK 2611/48 on the Cierny Balog line in Czechoslovakia on 25th September 1992.



Back to Blighty and a shot of 71000 Duke of Gloucester on Gresford Bank which I understand to be in Wrexham on 4th October 1992 although the date must be called in to question as there is no movement by 71000 recorded on Six Bells Junction on that date and the head board is unreadable.



Some more of Lord Nelson here but this time on the Cumbrian Mountain Express in 1980, all at unidentified locations so, as ever, advice about those will be appreciated although I suspect the first two are at the same place.









Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

IMG#075 is Skipton, the signal box is "Skipton Station South".

Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Some more of Lord Nelson here but this time on the Cumbrian Mountain Express in 1980, all at unidentified locations so, as ever, advice about those will be appreciated although I suspect the first two are at the same place.

First and fourth are at Garsdale on the S&C.

 

[oldravendale]

Excellent location info, so thanks Dave @Yorkshire Dave and Martin @Martin Shaw .

Two RT Buses here probably in late 1989 in a box labelled “Quorn Bus Rally 1989 or London Scenes December 1989” but I don’t believe these fall in to either category. The vehicles involved are RT2150 (KGK959), an AEC Regent III of April 1949 and RT2759 (LYR969) also an AEC Regent III but of February 1952 and I believe these are in the possession of Blue Triangle rather than London Transport and possibly on a regular service. The route number 622 and destination Harlow and Great Yeldham is properly displayed on the destination blinds although I don't have details of the precise location for the photos. See “Bus Lists on the Web”.









Three photos here which I believe to actually be from the bus rally at Quorn on the GCR in 1989. First is a Routemaster badge, then a Leyland PD2/12 of January 1955 which was Trent fleet number 1256 (Reg No FRC956) and finally London Transport/Green Line Routemaster RCL2233 (CUV233C) which was new in June 1965. See “Bus Lists on the Web”.







Class N7/4 69621 which was withdrawn from Sratford in September 1962 and here apparently under restoration probably at Chappel & Wakes Colne but regrettably there is no suggestion of a date. Further details are on 69621 (GER 999E, LNER 7999, LNER 9621 & BR 69621)



Brian

 

[76043]

That's a pretty awful Routemaster badge someone has cobbled together. No self respecting LT employee would have used Helvetica or even worse Arial to produce that when you can have the luxury of the Johnston typeface. ;-) Whatever, it's a repro done badly.
Tony

 

[Peter Insole]

You've done it again Brian! Back in the late eighties I was freelancing for an advertising agency in Sudbury (Suffolk). One summer Sunday afternoon, after heading home from finishing off a deadline job, you might imagine my utter surprise to come across RT2799, LYR 969 waiting at a Yeldham bus stop, and preparing for a run to Harlow!

The conductor informed me that it was a new, regular, Sunday only service, subsidised by Essex County Council, and that it would run for the remainder of the season... primarily using Blue Triangle's (then) two RT's. (the other being 2150). In the event of non-availability, an RF or RM might be substituted! You might also imagine that with the northern terminus being so very close to home, it was just too good an opportunity to miss for frequent journeys up and down the route! It was particularly satisfying to ride on the last round trip after dark - especially when picking up and dropping off quite a few passengers at bus stops around Harlow and Braintree towns. Plenty of "dings" on the bell, and "Hold tight" calls from the conductor!

Apparently, according to the crews, the boss was Roger Wright, (of Blue Triangle) and he was a former Barking (BK) driver who purchased RT2799 directly from London Transport. Now, although LT was an independent, self licencing authority, at that time there was clearly an agreement in place that insisted any vehicle sold to a private individual had to have a full COF, (Certificate of Fitness) the rather more stringent form of MOT. Mr. Wright soon discovered that the paperwork for 2799 was not worth the paper it was written on! On one occasion he described it to me along the lines of: "Just an almost worthless bag of rusty nuts and bolts with wheels at the corners!"

In order to take advantage of "Deregulation", and with no more RT's available from LT, he subsequently purchased RT2150 from Wombwell Diesels. Again, there were conditions of sale imposed by LT - in that once vehicles had been sold for scrap... than that is what they were! Presumably Mr. Wright got away with buying the complete 2150 on the basis that it was solely required as a source of spare parts - specifically for use on 2799! Again, according to Roger, when he got it home it was clearly "Way by far superior to 2799... and it sailed easily through a COF exam!" After much work on 2799, he ended up with two, reasonably reliable runners for the 622 contract (note the subtle choice of route number... that I am led to believe was not coincidental!).

The long, twin vehicle route ran for a second season, and as I recall, there were few substitutions... so not a bad record for such superannuated buses!

By the way Brian, and with me being in "super pedant mode", please stop referring to the RT as a "Regent Three" Although the confusion is quite understandable, it was always purely, and throughout, an utterly unique, London Transport, Chiswick design. Ironically, the chassis had more in common with Leyland than any previous AEC product - and something which was later to become an issue as well as an advantage! As I am given to understand, the 1940 title was however applied (after the first dozen or so production buses had already been delivered) as a designation only to be used for RT type chassis that AEC were permitted to sell (under licence from LT?) to other, provincial or private operators! The choice of RT as a preface itself remains an unsolved mystery that nonetheless abounds with theories amongst enthusiasts... and probably compounded by the much later use of "RM" for "Routemaster"! The correct designation for chassis and bodies were:

Solitary prototype: "1RT1", Early production: "2RT2" and the so called "post war" redesign was "3RT3" (onwards through several sub types).

On a slightly more hopefully amusing, and anecdotal note: Blue Triangle conductors were sadly not issued with the more appropriate "Gibson" ticket machines for their 622 route, so had to use Country area "Setright" machines instead. As I had already been very lucky to acquire a genuine example of the classic type, complete with case, harness and a bundle of spare ticket rolls, I decided to take it with me on one of my many trips.

The conductor was utterly delighted, and asked me if he could have a play... "for old times sake!" Admittedly, it was lovely to hear the familiar "Clack-clack, b-zzzzz-chp" during the trip, but he did use up the best part of a roll!

He made a point of folding and stuffing a load of extra tickets under the seat top rails in the traditional Londoner's fashion, saying as he did so:

"I'd love to see the Guvnor's face when we take this lot back to the depot tonight!"

Pete.

 

[Osgood]

AEC badges -

As a 9 year-old I managed to stuff a screwdriver through the radiator of one of my dad's ex ww2 Matador dump trucks whilst trying to remove the badge.

Now, wherever did I put that badge......

 

[Peter Insole]

Incidentally, I have discovered that RT2799 is not only still a runner, it has, just last September, (?) been returned to it's authentic, 1988, Blue Triangle livery. Thinking about it, I feel that to be an altogether appropriate decision; given the historical importance of that pioneering vehicle and the 622 contract!

Unfortunately, I did not take any photographs of those trips way back in 88/89. I did however film them with my then brand new VHSC camera. The results were by today's standards, pretty awful, poorly focussed, drop-out and interference riddled, "super-wobblescope" recordings! Lovely for a wallowing memory trip... if I only knew where the jolly box of tapes has got to... or indeed had any means of actually playing them now!!!

Pete.

 

[Peter Insole]

I hope you don't mind a bit of a flurry of posts from me on here Brian? I have found some rather more recent shots of RT2150 - and my old favourite RT3251 as well... all taken at the Barking last RT anniversary in April 2019.





Blimey! That event only seems like yesterday as well!

Pete.

 

[Arun Sharma]

Roger Wright is of course also the owner of the Epping-Ongar Railway [and numerous ex-LT buses] as well as the recently retired owner of the London Bus and Truck Co at Northfleet. He let me clamber all over [and measure] his front-entrance STL tree-lopper when I was designing the 7mm scale kit of it.


This is the [7mm model] tree lopper that lived at Northfleet. Along with a few that were converted to railway breakdown tenders, these were the last STLs in LT service. They were regularly seen in central london as up to 1962 they were required to keep tree branches away from the trolleybus overhead. Hence there was always one or more around where Epping Forest met Leytonstone.

 

[Peter Insole]

Alright - I promise this will be the last time on this topic for a while! I was desperately trying to remember where the Blue Triangle buses used to pass each other... but it was an awful long time ago. I kept getting this horrible feeling that the road had more recently been subsumed by the "new" A120.

Took me a while... but I have just found it: The location of the shots are at the junction of Braintree Road (through route) and Station Road, Felsted. In the first, third and fourth images, the old road (that the buses are on) now starts rising on an embankment a short distance from the bus shelter in order to bridge the new dual carriageway that ploughs it's ****** (choose your own adjective) way through the once barely disturbed and peaceful landscape!

Pete.

 

[SimonT]

Pete,
thank you for the identification of the location of the photos. I had a niggle becaus, as a Colchester lad, I had initially thought it was just west of Great Tay. There was a similar brick bus stop and a bungalow nearby but I knew that I was wrong.
Your new ****** dual carriageway opened in 2003! I am forever greatful that it is there as it avoids the dreadful A12; a lethal road surface and a massive part of the traffic that 4,000,000 containers a year (11,000 a day) that go through Felixstowe.
Simon

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Alright - I promise this will be the last time on this topic for a while! I was desperately trying to remember where the Blue Triangle buses used to pass each other... but it was an awful long time ago. I kept getting this horrible feeling that the road had more recently been subsumed by the "new" A120.

Took me a while... but I have just found it: The location of the shots are at the junction of Braintree Road (through route) and Station Road, Felsted. In the first, third and fourth images, the old road (that the buses are on) now starts rising on an embankment a short distance from the bus shelter in order to bridge the new dual carriageway that ploughs it's ****** (choose your own adjective) way through the once barely disturbed and peaceful landscape!

Hi Pete

From your description the junction is just north of Little Dunmow being immediately north west of Felsted - the old A120 cutting across the top of the map is now the B1256. As with all new roads like the new A120 they truncate lanes which now means longer journey times to reach anywhere - gone are the short cuts.

These two extracts are from NLS OS 1:2,500 A ed., 1948-74. One with the overlay transparency pared back to show today's topography.



These three are from Google street view (2024) and reveal both bus stops are still there together with the brick shelter. The most noticeable difference is how the trees have grown over the last 35 years.

 

[Peter Insole]

Thanks for that much more complete answer Dave.

I had also forgotten to mention that the old A120 (which RT2150 is about to turn left onto... and from whence RT2799 came) was historically called "Stane Street". Clearly that was in deference to it's ancient, Roman origins. Not any more it would seem - as apparently it is now just plain, boring Braintree Road! I accept that I'm probably ignorant, but I just cannot understand why?!

Pete.

 

[simond]

I accept that I'm probably ignorant, but I just cannot understand why

Pete, you’re not, not at all, but that line’s a killer!