Western Thunder 9 years after Cynric

[Simon]

This thread was spun out of Larry's prairie sale thread in small ads.

It was initially prompted by thoughts of how the world of ready to run models and their many delights related to the world of Western Thunder.

Which led to more general thoughts about what we post on the forum and how what is posted affects or possibly changes the forum.

So a bit of pondering and gentle introspection about Western Thunder, nearly nine years after its founder Cynric Williams sadly left us.

To quote from our welcome page:

This Forum was started several years ago by Cynric Williams who was keen to see a relaxed forum where modellers could share photos and notes on construction of models and layouts, particularly focusing on the larger scales, from 'S' & 'O' upwards. The emphasis is on people “doing stuff”, in part a reaction against the wish lists and "box modellers" on other forums.

The original nucleus of modellers had a fairly common interest in Western Region Diesel Hydraulics, hence the theme of the forum was set.
There is really only one rule and that is "to play nicely".

So, to be clear, this thread is not here to tell anyone what to do, to suggest that there is anything "wrong", or to criticise anything that anyone has previously posted.

Simon

 

[oldravendale]

Perhaps I may put a very small cat - a kitten possibly - among our well fed pigeons regarding Western Thunder and ready to run models.

I wonder whether this is worth a short debate? The situation regarding RTR has changed significantly since Cynric set up this wonderful site. 4mm models are of much higher fidelity and there was no significant 7mm RTR market. Personally I find the photos by Robbie McGavin of huge interest, and I speak as one who does not enjoy the photos in the model mags where inappropriate steam and smoke effects are shown from the chimney with no thought of the other areas where steam may occur. Robbie's photos indicate a good deal of research and I find them quite artistic.

Equally the use of RTR 7mm models on layouts, when they are properly utilised, is often inspiring and will bring - may even have brought - new layout builders to the hobby who perhaps have no interest in building their own locos and stock.

Then, of course, there is the amazing North American brass.

In short, while this is not the place for an endless critique of RTR we can surely recognise its place in the hobby.

Brian

 

[Simon]

Thinking about this, one of the thoughts we all had back at the beginning of 2013 was that Western Thunder would be a "place" that would always be worthy of Cynric, his generosity, tolerance, good humour, creativity and skill. And that Cynric's two boys would be able to look at in the future and reflect that it was created by their dad.

On which note I hope we all have a good Christmas break in whatever way each of us wishes.

For myself I hope to do at least a bit of modelling amongst everything else, I have bought enough brass wire to put the handrails on the brake van and really ought to get back to my railcar project too...

Simon

 

[michael080]

I joined this forum some four years ago, never had any discussion with its founder, but I feel that this is still a special group of modellers with similar ideas and a very strong urge to keep everything civilized.
Thank you for that.
I wish you all a very relaxing and productive Christmas break.

Michael

 

[LarryG]

Perhaps I may put a very small cat - a kitten possibly - among our well fed pigeons.

I wonder whether this is worth a short debate? The situation regarding RTR has changed significantly since Cynric set up this wonderful site. 4mm models are of much higher fidelity and there was no significant 7mm RTR market. Personally I find the photos by Robbie McGavin of huge interest, and I speak as one who does not enjoy the photos in the model mags where inappropriate steam and smoke effects are shown from the chimney with no thought of the other areas where steam may occur. Robbie's photos indicate a good deal of research and I find them quite artistic.

Brian

I wasn't going to say anything, but seeing as Robbies images have been mentioned, these are my thoughts. These images do not demonstrate the fidelity of current RTR products when tread width and flange depths have been slimmed down to almost P4 appearances.

RTR has its place and I for one would be lost without it as regards locomotives. But I feel there has to be a modelling aspect as well.

 

[Heather Kay]

I would like to echo Brian's thoughts about how RTR has come on markedly in the past few years.

At one end, the likes of Hornby, Bachmann, Dapol, Farish et al, have been producing some startlingly good models in 4mm and 2mm scales of things that would only ever have been possible in kit form barely a decade ago. At the other, you have Lee Marsh and Masterpiece Models producing exceptional high-end RTR models in 7mm scale, plus Dapol and others with rolling stock of a very high standard.

So, there is a place for RTR on WT, I think. The craftsmanship shown with so many of the scratch- and kit-built models here will remain paramount - and long may it be so - but detailing and weathering models that come straight from a box still have a place.

 

[Flaxfield]

If I may, my modelling is solely based upon RTR locos and stock, along with much use of ready to plant buildings and Peco trackwork.

All are tinkered with to a greater or lesser degree, detailed where needed and certainly weathered to a greater or lesser degree.

This approach has previously stemmed from two main things;

A marked lack of ability to build a chassis to an acceptable standard.

A lack of time due to work/family/poor time management.

Now that I have moved into the world of semi-retirement, full time if I don't get my finger out and ideally get a part time job, the latter might change ( I'm not holding my breath) and may result in the former being resolved.

Nothing is kept straight from the box. It's simply a matter of getting to it.

I think it comes down to the overall appearance of a model or layout rather than the origins of the models themselves and ultimately if these models reach our own personal standards ( which should continue to evolve through practice). If these models are acceptable to others then I see that as an extremely nice by-product of my own enjoyment.

Rob.

 

[Simon]

Rob, you are modelling, and as far as (your) rtr elements go, well they are massively enhanced by being in your scenes, stories and imagination, and then there's the weathering too

None of that is a problem, it's more a case of not wanting pontificating chatty threads about rtr, or possibly even questions about it on WT.

To give an example, I believe Cookie is contemplating putting his toes back in the modelling waters, and was wondering which of several rtr models would be the best runners for shunting.

We agreed that such a question would be best posed on RMweb, because there are vast numbers of members there who might have thoughts on the subject(!) but not good for WT because it is not actually to do with modelling or anything creative.

Which all of your threads here most certainly are!

Sticking my neck out a bit further, I think there are times when one ought to consider just what value one is adding to WT in making any comment.

Which is not to say that there should't be any chat of course, we have places for that here too.

Simon

 

[mickoo]

Ironically I get more feedback and dialogue generation (which I feel, rightly or wrongly, is a good thing to have on WT) from the few recent US brass and plastic RTR posts recently than I have had for all the kit building (all be it commercial) posts during the same period, despite the often large quantities of scratch building, upgrades and modifications required in the latter; such to the point that I'll probably let that thread wither and die shortly.

I'm not the only one, so I don't take it personally, I've been watching a few other long term builders who show their work and get plenty of likes but no replies or dialogue, maybe they don't want it, but for me the whole point of taking pictures and then the time to host them up is to try and generate interest and conversation.

If no one is talking back then you have to consider the brutal truth that no one is actually interested anymore, or as I more rightly suspect, the dynamics of this group has changed in favour of RTR and the BOB's (box opening bandits).

I don't mind a bit of BOB myself and try to temper the enthusiasm here and offset it with more 'real' modelling, but I'm finding the balance has shifted over the last few years, more so this last one.

Mick D

 

[Heather Kay]

If no one is talking back then you have to consider the brutal truth that no one is actually interested anymore, or as I more rightly suspect, the dynamics of this group has changed in favour of RTR and the BOB's (box opening bandits).

I'm not sure that’s quite right. I follow a lot of your work, but rarely feel a need to comment. That’s usually because I’m awestruck and generally lost for words. So, don’t think that people aren’t interested just because they’re not chatting. Many are probably quietly reading along and learning all the while.

 

[oldravendale]

What Heather said.

We'd be much poorer without your builds on WT, Mick. It's your actions in overcoming problems that are inspiring and educational but I don't feel qualified to comment. I'm sorry that you feel you are talking to a vacuum but I can assure you that you are not.

Brian

 

[Rob R]

I'm not sure that’s quite right. I follow a lot of your work, but rarely feel a need to comment. That’s usually because I’m awestruck and generally lost for words. So, don’t think that people aren’t interested just because they’re not chatting. Many are probably quietly reading along and learning all the while.

+ one.
Which is more preferable?
Hitting the "like" button or filling the thread up with "wow that's good" posts which although they convey a similar message to the "likes" add little else of value to the thread.
Please keep going with your build threads Mick, we do read them (and drool over the invisable solder).
Rob

 

[Simon]

Ironically I get more feedback and dialogue generation (which I feel, rightly or wrongly, is a good thing to have on WT) from the few recent US brass and plastic RTR posts recently than I have had for all the kit building (all be it commercial) posts during the same period, despite the often large quantities of scratch building, upgrades and modifications required in the latter; such to the point that I'll probably let that thread wither and die shortly.

I'm not the only one, so I don't take it personally, I've been watching a few other long term builders who show their work and get plenty of likes but no replies or dialogue, maybe they don't want it, but for me the whole point of taking pictures and then the time to host them up is to try and generate interest and conversation.

If no one is talking back then you have to consider the brutal truth that no one is actually interested anymore, or as I more rightly suspect, the dynamics of this group has changed in favour of RTR and the BOB's (box opening bandits).

I don't mind a bit of BOB myself and try to temper the enthusiasm here and offset it with more 'real' modelling, but I'm finding the balance has shifted over the last few years, more so this last one.

Mick D

You may be right Mick, although I'm not sure.

Certainly, over the years a lot of folk have pitched up here on WT with, dare I say it, an "RMweb mentality", Most don't stay long as they find this place a bit "quiet" and more to the point, lacking in the "controversy" which RMweb is in places prone to. This is for all sorts of reasons, mostly extreme popularity, and I am not criticising RMweb or any of its members in saying this.

RMweb is very rtr focused, for all sorts of good reasons. This place will, or dare I even say should, always be a "minority interest" site I think.

Sticking my neck out further (it is the season for turkeys after all), I think that pro builders posting threads here will likely always get less response than non pro building threads.

Why? Because pro building is inevitably less interesting than everything else, in the sense that the builder isn't going on any journey, isn't going to do anything very novel or surprising, and the outcome is pretty much known before you even start. Which is not to say that they are not interesting, of course.

But again, in terms of value added to the forum, what does a pro builder building the nth lovely pre grouping masterpiece to his name actually add to the forum? We all know it will look lovely when it is finished don't we?

That is kind of meant to be a bit of a challenging statement(!) but I think there is something in it - over to everyone else!

Simon

 

[jonte]

+ one.
Which is more preferable?
Hitting the "like" button or filling the thread up with "wow that's good" posts which although they convey a similar message to the "likes" add little else of value to the thread.
Please keep going with your build threads Mick, we do read them (and drool over the invisable solder).
Rob

I have to hold my hands up to being a prolific box-opener and committed OO gauger- please don’t ‘wince’ at my over-generous flangeways; they’re supplied with the Streamline point work I’m using - but I have to admit that when one is extremely lucky (humbled and grateful too) to receive the odd ‘wow’ or similar plaudit, I find it inspires one to actually finish something. Not that ‘likes’ don’t cut the mustard, it’s just - I humbly submit - that an additional comment as described is more than just an iteration. I’ve also been guilty of liking and submitting an additional commend, but quite often here due to the high level of skill, a simple like isn’t quite enough - IMHO of course.

On the odd occasion when I’ve roused myself from the comfort zone and wielded a hot iron, I’ve been most grateful for the generous and readily offered assistance of @mickoo and @oldravendale, amongst other fellow Westerners who’ve been kind enough to offer advice. Whilst easy to conclude I’ve developed wet feet and given up the ghost, fear not, as I’m confident enough to go again when the opportunity and funds allow; even my current train set has benefitted from those valuable skills, tools and substances willingly imparted to make the job a darned set easier and of higher quality than I could ever have achieved alone, and it’s all the better for it.

Perhaps I should visit and comment more often at some of the wonderful metalwork going on amongst this hallowed of fora, but I genuinely feel that I’m simply not worthy to do so. I can still, however, admire from afar.

Jonte

 

[Pencarrow]

Ironically I get more feedback and dialogue generation (which I feel, rightly or wrongly, is a good thing to have on WT) from the few recent US brass and plastic RTR posts recently than I have had for all the kit building (all be it commercial) posts during the same period, despite the often large quantities of scratch building, upgrades and modifications required in the latter; such to the point that I'll probably let that thread wither and die shortly.

I'm not the only one, so I don't take it personally, I've been watching a few other long term builders who show their work and get plenty of likes but no replies or dialogue, maybe they don't want it, but for me the whole point of taking pictures and then the time to host them up is to try and generate interest and conversation.

If no one is talking back then you have to consider the brutal truth that no one is actually interested anymore, or as I more rightly suspect, the dynamics of this group has changed in favour of RTR and the BOB's (box opening bandits).

I don't mind a bit of BOB myself and try to temper the enthusiasm here and offset it with more 'real' modelling, but I'm finding the balance has shifted over the last few years, more so this last one.

Mick D

Hi Mick,

I avidly visit your build threads when I see new posts pop up. The content and results are inspirational and something very much to aspire to. I seldom comment as I sincerely doubt that there's anything useful I could add. I certainly couldn't offer advice!

I do click the occasional like just so you know I'm popping in but won't click like on everything as that's a bit of a blunderbuss approach IMO.

Keep posting builds and explaining what you're up to, it's all very useful.

 

[Dog Star]

Mick, @mickoo ,

Yes, in response to your earlier post, I do not provide much dialogue in your posts about the building of models from kits and that is because you are the mentor and I am learning from what you are doing. Maybe I could ask more questions... and that might be superfluous as:-

1/ what you write and what you are do is understandable, generally, especially when the subject is.a Finney7 kit;

2/ others beat me to the keyboard.

At the moment Peter and I are waiting keenly for the next post in the Duke story and we have been dissecting each and every post to make sure that we get the most from the text and photos (Peter intends to order the same kit early in 2020, to be Merlin to keep company with "his" namesake, another of the Finnye7 range on our layout).


regards, Graham

 

[Oz7mm]

Sticking my neck out further (it is the season for turkeys after all), I think that pro builders posting threads here will likely always get less response than non pro building threads.

Why? Because pro building is inevitably less interesting than everything else, in the sense that the builder isn't going on any journey, isn't going to do anything very novel or surprising, and the outcome is pretty much known before you even start. Which is not to say that they are not interesting, of course.

Simon

I disagree. The two pro builders who come to mind, Mickoo in particular, often do quite a lot more than simply build the kit from the box and in the course of doing so are scratchbuilding, either in the traditional sense or by substituting 3D printed parts. This has considerable value in both showing the shortcomings of a particular kit and of how to remedy them.

I think they do things that are novel and the workmanship is always inspiring.

Now I wonder where Mick gets that invisible solder? And how can he tell when he's run out?

John

 

[Rob Pulham]

I am with John, Graham, and others on this, there is always something to learn from Mick, Nick, Tony et, al's builds. I too seldom comment because I feel I have nothing useful to add.

Like Mick, I went through a period of wondering whether there was interest because of lack of direct comment. But decided that posting helps me to see what I have done and sometime errors that I have made and if others get something from it that's a bonus. If I ever get to the point of nobody bothering to look or tick the occasional like then I may think again but I doubt it.

 

[LarryG]

Looking in on the models by Mickoo and others is akin to admiring the marvellous static exhibits at the old Manchester Corn Exchange Xmas Exhibition back in steam days. I was often alone because the crowds were around the layouts and stalls. I just like looking at good modelling, but there is little I can add conversation-wise. I remember going to a BR O gauge exhibition at Hyde Townhall in 1959 and chatting with the operator about his scratchbuilt wooden coaches, because that was more in my own field.

 

[mickoo]

You may be right Mick, although I'm not sure.

Certainly, over the years a lot of folk have pitched up here on WT with, dare I say it, an "RMweb mentality", Most don't stay long as they find this place a bit "quiet" and more to the point, lacking in the "controversy" which RMweb is in places prone to. This is for all sorts of reasons, mostly extreme popularity, and I am not criticising RMweb or any of its members in saying this.

RMweb is very rtr focused, for all sorts of good reasons. This place will, or dare I even say should, always be a "minority interest" site I think.

Sticking my neck out further (it is the season for turkeys after all), I think that pro builders posting threads here will likely always get less response than non pro building threads.

Why? Because pro building is inevitably less interesting than everything else, in the sense that the builder isn't going on any journey, isn't going to do anything very novel or surprising, and the outcome is pretty much known before you even start. Which is not to say that they are not interesting, of course.

But again, in terms of value added to the forum, what does a pro builder building the nth lovely pre grouping masterpiece to his name actually add to the forum? We all know it will look lovely when it is finished don't we?

That is kind of meant to be a bit of a challenging statement(!) but I think there is something in it - over to everyone else!

Simon

It's an interesting conundrum and I see/respect your point.

From this side of the keyboard it's hard to understand that until seven months ago my models had an active and healthy feedback and conversation rate that stretches back 9½ years to when I first joined WT. Yet the change to going pro stopped that almost over night, still the same person, still the same workmanship, didn't grow any extra arms or legs or glow in the dark.

You didn't change that, no one changed that, I doubt it was even a conscious thing, it just happened. That's when I went out and did a little ground work around WT and discovered, there are other pro builders (and more worryingly non commercial builders) who seem to suffer the same dearth of feedback, but conversely there are those that are pro and still enjoy healthy conversation rates, go figure

Do pro builds add anything to the forum, interesting point and I suspect you'll get a multitude of answers, most of which depends on the criteria they set to determine whether they do or don't add value.

I don't know if they add value and I'd not be so presumptuous to assume I knew if they did or did not. I do know I have to wear three hats, my pro builds, my Finney7 business/help agent and my own modelling interests; it can make for some colourful mental challenges/arguments from time to time.

Regarding pro building and wonderful (subjective) models, you're right, they have no journey, there's nothing novel or innately interesting, it's a job, bish bosh, done, move on.

Here's an alternative provoking thought, do they get people to come to WT and look, do they then go on to add something more worthwhile, more meaningful, more in tune with the original WT genre?

You're not the first person to voice views very similar to yours when I've broached the subject privately, couple that with my own observations it's evident that less could be more beneficial to the collective

Anyway, we digress from your original post which I believe was to do with RTR.