Wheels for 03 & 04 shunters?

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SteveO

Guest
This is turning out to be very interesting. Initially, the wheels would have only to be fit for a budget kit so I'm thinking buyers would perhaps source their own – probably the Slaters model mentioned earlier. However, I'd really like to get something produced and offered exclusively from the outset. Later, a highly developed kit would be offered, and I wouldn't like to compromise, so would include the wheels in the 'package'.

I spoke to someone today, who has spoken to Slaters previously about some custom wheels being produced. They would charge £1000 to set up the masters, plus the cost of producing the wheels on top. And these prices are a couple years old so could now be even higher.

When's all said and done, I would like to offer a set of wheels for either the 03 or 04 variants to be comparative to Slaters RRP with at least equivalent quality. I'm not sure it can be done.
 

Mike W

Western Thunderer
I suggest you ask David White again. My experience, and that of friends is that provided they have a tyre of the correct size, they will produce them at standard price for the size and no minimum order level at all. For example a Manning Wardle in G3 and a Bury 2-2-0 in 7mm - hardly bid sellers!

Mike
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
I agree with Mike W, Slaters are usually very helpful especially if they have the correct size tyre in stock.

But having Slaters produce them for you would take away the fun of making them yourself. A pattern for the 04 wheel only needs four odd shaped holes in it and could be made in styrene using only simple hand tools - all you need are a pin vice with a couple of drills, a jewellers saw and some fine jewellers files. You could do the same in brass or aluminium as well. Real wheels tend to be quite rough castings so a bit of 'character' shouldn't be a problem. Just to show a few wheels I have done to show what you can get away with -
wheels1.jpg
The pattern, bottom left started with a laser cut trial for a wagon wheel in acrylic then had bits of styrene stuck on with super glue and some Squadron Green Putty - not a pretty sight. A wax top left and lost wax castings. These are in white bronze as the caster didn't have nickel silver. Not recommended as it is incredibly tough to turn and does tarnish.

wheels2.jpg
Lost wax cast brass centres from a hand cut aluminium pattern with brass bits stuck on. They are not perfect but neither are the 1870s originals. The casting on the right was a trial hand cut from the wax used by jewellers to carve rings etc. Easy enough to cut but difficult to add crankthrows etc.

wheels5.jpg
And pantograph milled brass centres with the 2:1 pattern top left. A pattern for a larger wheel half made on the right using the original drawing scaled down and stuck to the 1.5mm styrene.

So Steve, I think you should have a go at making a pattern for the 04 wheel. There is nothing to lose.
 
S

SteveO

Guest
You've put together a very enticing sales pitch with some excellent examples, particularly the lost wax centre wheels. The tyres I'd need are 3'6" for the 04 and 3'7" for the 03, both of which Slaters have in their range.

If I were retired or had more time away from my job and family I would look more seriously at doing this myself. But that's not the case. I'm a director of a very time-demanding company and dad to a 4-year old son – I simply don't have the time to invest in it, unless I could earn money from it, which is clearly not going to happen. Besides time, I don't have the equipment necessary to experiment while learning, so would have to buy in casting, meaning the cost would probably be impractical.

However, I am fortunate in having the resources to pay for someone to do this, on condition that the price does not exceed the choice of using incorrect, but financially accountable, Slaters wheels.

Come Tuesday week I will own the rights to two kits – an 03 and an 04 – both of which are currently out of production. They are both very simply-designed but offer the opportunity for the builder to detail themselves. What I'd like to do is to offer them with an included wheel package that is prototypically correct to provide a sound basis for detailing. Meanwhile, I will start to design much better kits of both prototypes, also including the accurate wheels previously developed, but the level of default detail will be built-in rather than user-applied.

I'll talk to both casters and David W this week to see what can be done within the initial timeframe I've set myself. Or, if you feel you're up for the challenge of making 144 wheels (in two different designs) with insulated axles, bearings and crankpins for about £1200 cash drop me a message.
 

OzzyO

Western Thunderer
Hello SteveO'

what about getting the masters made using 3D printing and then cast in brass and using the Slater's tires. The tolerance on the Slater's tires could mean that you could then heat up the tires and shrink fit them to the wheel centres.

OzzyO.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
3D printing would I think in this case be the way to go, it'd not be hard to whip a master up in 3DSMax, if you have an accurate drawing or even basic dimensions etc then it'd be even easier. Make one spoke and associated rim/centre, clone 11 times and rotate accordingly and join, bosh, one wheel ready for printing.

I have/am toying doing this for other wheels and getting the backs done with the correct profile and adding rims, I didnt know Slaters offered rims per se, that'd be a huge workload removed if you can just purchase rims.
 
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SteveO

Guest
Thanks both. I have some fairly exciting news, which I'll update here later when I get home.
 
S

SteveO

Guest
I spoke to David W today, after initially being put off by the potential cost. However, he was only too happy to help out and include them within his range. There is a small tooling cost for the plastic centres, which I'll have to bare twice, but the conversation couldn't have gone any smoother than if I was talking to myself! The only down side is that wheel balance weights of that size can't be moulded in so would have to be supplied as separate etches.

I'm now off to look for suitable photographic references for the prototypes.
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
I spoke to David W today, after initially being put off by the potential cost. However, he was only too happy to help out and include them within his range. There is a small tooling cost for the plastic centres, which I'll have to bare twice, but the conversation couldn't have gone any smoother than if I was talking to myself! The only down side is that wheel balance weights of that size can't be moulded in so would have to be supplied as separate etches.

I'm now off to look for suitable photographic references for the prototypes.
That is good news. However, I think trying to represent the balance weights on either size of 04 wheel with applied etches won't work as the surface of the balance weights are at the same level as the spokes. Maybe they could add pegs in the back part of the mould to reduce the volume of plastic in the balance weights. I know Slaters aren't keen on complicating the wheel tooling by adding detail to the rear but they are quite capable of doing it as they proved with the Rocket wheels (which are also scale profile). Worth another conversation with David W before you finalise the proposal.
 
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SteveO

Guest
Is that before or after you've decided which wheel size to tool for the 04? :p:confused:;)

That's an uncannily good question which I've been worrying about. I've had to check and recheck – and then check again – which build I have and I'm about 97 3/4% it's the final batch, so it'll be 3'7", the same dimension as the 03 but with a different spoke and balance weight pattern.
That is good news. However, I think trying to represent the balance weights on either size of 04 wheel with applied etches won't work as the surface of the balance weights are at the same level as the spokes. Maybe they could add pegs in the back part of the mould to reduce the volume of plastic in the balance weights. I know Slaters aren't keen on complicating the wheel tooling by adding detail to the rear but they are quite capable of doing it as they proved with the Rocket wheels (which are also scale profile). Worth another conversation with David W before you finalise the proposal.

I must admit, that did cross my mind. No matter how thin I etch the weights it will still stand proud of the spokes. I will talk again and see what can be done.
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
I am not certain but I think the 3'6" and 3'7" 04 wheels had the same centres, just thicker tyres on the last batch. If you did them as 3'6" diameter they would suit both batches as 1/2" wear would be normal after a bit of use. Brand new tyres at full diameter are rare and short lived. There probably wouldn't be much market for the 3'3" wheels especially as most of the models of the earlier locos probably have skirts to hide the wheels.
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
I am not certain but I think the 3'6" and 3'7" 04 wheels had the same centres, just thicker tyres on the last batch. If you did them as 3'6" diameter they would suit both batches as 1/2" wear would be normal after a bit of use. Brand new tyres at full diameter are rare and short lived. There probably wouldn't be much market for the 3'3" wheels especially as most of the models of the earlier locos probably have skirts to hide the wheels.


They also have a different arrangement to the cab windows and one or two of the really early ones had different bonnet louvres and radiator grilles. Tricky class with a good few detail variations.

Steph
 
S

SteveO

Guest
I am not certain but I think the 3'6" and 3'7" 04 wheels had the same centres, just thicker tyres on the last batch. If you did them as 3'6" diameter they would suit both batches as 1/2" wear would be normal after a bit of use. Brand new tyres at full diameter are rare and short lived. There probably wouldn't be much market for the 3'3" wheels especially as most of the models of the earlier locos probably have skirts to hide the wheels.

Good points, although there are a few in preservation with 3'3" wheels and skirts removed. Something to think about later.

I'm wondering, with the DJH a bloody good kit – and complete with wheels, motor, transfers, etc – why is it such a poor seller? I know internet forums are not the be-all-and-end-all of sales figures but I know of only 5 sales across MIGO, several incarnations of RMWeb and here, as well as the wider internet. I know roughly twice as many MMP 08s or the same amount of Judith Edge 06s, for example. Is it simply the initial price that gets in the way of what's actually in the box? Maybe it coincided with the release of the Bachmann RTRs? I'm not sure!
 

OzzyO

Western Thunderer
If Slater's are going to make the wheel centres and the etched balance weights, ask for the spokes that the balance weights will cover to be flat faced so that the balance weights will look to be a part of the wheel casting and not an add on. IE. set back to accommodate the balance weight.

I've got a set of Slater's wheels for a 9F , when you put the balance weights on then they slope outwards towards the centre of the wheel, when the face of the balance weight should be vertical. All I can think of is to machine the spokes back so that the weights are correct.

If your going to use Slater's make sure that they also cut the correct number of spokes in the wheel. They don't always get this correct.

OzzyO.
 

flexible_coupling

Western Thunderer
Good points, although there are a few in preservation with 3'3" wheels and skirts removed. Something to think about later.

I'm wondering, with the DJH a bloody good kit – and complete with wheels, motor, transfers, etc – why is it such a poor seller? I know internet forums are not the be-all-and-end-all of sales figures but I know of only 5 sales across MIGO, several incarnations of RMWeb and here, as well as the wider internet. I know roughly twice as many MMP 08s or the same amount of Judith Edge 06s, for example. Is it simply the initial price that gets in the way of what's actually in the box? Maybe it coincided with the release of the Bachmann RTRs? I'm not sure!


The existence of the DJH '03' kit was a big reason behind my choosing O-scale to return to model railways with. This was before I realized what the exchange rate was to $AU! I didn't end up purchasing the kit - other things leaped ahead in the priority/pecking order for my limited funds. I've since come to see that the hefty whitemetal body might lead to be a serious inconvenience to adding a smoke generator and a decent sound unit, not to mention tweaks like the odd slightly-ajar access door. Truly honestly - the price is a significant barrier as well...
 
S

SteveO

Guest
On MIGO there was a chap who fitted DCC sound and smoke in his DJH 03, plus he detailed it even further. It was amazing. Somewhere around I have the MIGO newsletter which featured the build – I think by either Simon or Christian, but can't be sure.

If you're interested in seeing it I'll dig it out and email it to you. I think it was over a couple issues but I'll have to check.
 
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