Wantage Tramway No.5

[Eastsidepilot]

I'm also thinking about how to replicate the cab curtains. ..........

I don't know what the cab curtains were made of on these loco's but if a canvas of some type I have used the tissue from etched kits painted with thinned out paint to give a washed out effect.
Not a particularly clear photo but the sheet on the tender was made this way.


Col.

 

[Overseer]

Not my photo but the most recent red scheme in preservation -


I painted mine in blue as George England's house colour was reportedly royal blue. Not sure what colour it was on the Sandy and Potton Railway. The LNWR probably painted it a Brunswick green while they owned it, and then possibly black before sale. Then red on the Wantage Tramway until the late 1920s when it seems to have been painted in GW green at Swindon. It was repainted GW green for display on the platform at Wantage Road. At Didcot it has alternated between green and red.

 

[spikey faz]

Col, that's exactly the kind of finish I will be looking for, so will give that a go.

Seeing as the colour went from green to red maybe I should go for the middle ground with amber. The traffic light loco????

Mike

 

[Stevesopwith]

Based on Pearce Higgins book I have always believed that all the Wantage locos were painted a variety of shades of green.

There is also a transcript of an article written in the 50s based on a fresh batch of documents and minutes of the company. The publication was available at Swindon Library.

Neither makes any mention of red/maroon being used for locos.

There is a colourised postcard of the Matthews Tram loco, with Hurst Nelson car No 5... ie post 1912, in which the loco is green.
I understand the caveats applicable in such cases, but the artist has got the tramcar livery correct... why would he be wrong about the loco?

Is there any new documentary evidence supporting the red colour at any time?

When questioned about the new colour, a Didcot volunteer explained that the lowest paint layer was found to be a dark red, the assumption being that this was the earliest original colour.
However, there is another account that the paint was completely stripped in the 70s, and a red lead primer was applied.

Jane underwent extensive repairs at Swindon in 1896 and 1921, and the Avonside Engine Co. in 1929
She was overhauled at Swindon in 1939 and again in 1946, and Higgins notes in both cases she was painted green.
I think he is quoting verbatim from the Swindon documentation, rather than implying that she was a different color before. It is at least possible that she was painted green during the previous visits to Swindon.

The same is at least plausible for the Manning Wardle No7, that visited Swindon in 1900, 1921 and 1924, and is also usually considered to have been green

A degree of caution is wise when basing a model on a restored example. This applies to colour as well as equipment.
I regard the paint layer evidence as weak, and I wonder if someone decided that the loco would look nicer and stand out more, rather than being concerned over historical accuracy.

 

[spikey faz]

My understanding is that red is/has been a difficult colour to keep looking good. Even in relatively modern times some of the red coloured cars I've owned have gone various shades of pink! I seem to recall reading an article that when BR was looking to standardise on a colour at nationalisation they discounted red as an option due to the instability of the red pigments. If green is lower maintenance then I guess that's what I'd go for.

Mike

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Going back about 40 years as a young carpenter working for a family firm of building contractors the paints then being used suffered from pigment bleaching by the weather. The worst were reds, blues, green and yellow. probably why white and cream was used more often for doors and windows in the end.
Of coarse with modern day chemical additives to the paint we don't seem to get the problem now.
Col.

 

[spikey faz]

Going back about 40 years as a young carpenter working for a family firm of building contractors the paints then being used suffered from pigment bleaching by the weather. The worst were reds, blues, green and yellow. probably why white and cream was used more often for doors and windows in the end.
Of coarse with modern day chemical additives to the paint we don't seem to get the problem now.
Col.

Well, that settles it then. My loco will be white!

I will make a decision on colour later. Right now I'm battling to get some clearance between the crosshead and front crankpin. Currently I'm working with minus clearance! Time for some discreet adjustments methinks.

Mike

 

[Peter Cross]

Well, that settles it then. My loco will be white

What shade?

 

[spikey faz]

What shade?

A whiter shade of pale.

Mike

 

[Eastsidepilot]

A whiter shade of pale.

Mike

What no Crimson King.....

 

[Overseer]

Based on Pearce Higgins book I have always believed that all the Wantage locos were painted a variety of shades of green.

There is also a transcript of an article written in the 50s based on a fresh batch of documents and minutes of the company. The publication was available at Swindon Library.

Neither makes any mention of red/maroon being used for locos.

There is a colourised postcard of the Matthews Tram loco, with Hurst Nelson car No 5... ie post 1912, in which the loco is green.
I understand the caveats applicable in such cases, but the artist has got the tramcar livery correct... why would he be wrong about the loco?

Is there any new documentary evidence supporting the red colour at any time?

When questioned about the new colour, a Didcot volunteer explained that the lowest paint layer was found to be a dark red, the assumption being that this was the earliest original colour.
However, there is another account that the paint was completely stripped in the 70s, and a red lead primer was applied.

Jane underwent extensive repairs at Swindon in 1896 and 1921, and the Avonside Engine Co. in 1929
She was overhauled at Swindon in 1939 and again in 1946, and Higgins notes in both cases she was painted green.
I think he is quoting verbatim from the Swindon documentation, rather than implying that she was a different color before. It is at least possible that she was painted green during the previous visits to Swindon.

The same is at least plausible for the Manning Wardle No7, that visited Swindon in 1900, 1921 and 1924, and is also usually considered to have been green

A degree of caution is wise when basing a model on a restored example. This applies to colour as well as equipment.
I regard the paint layer evidence as weak, and I wonder if someone decided that the loco would look nicer and stand out more, rather than being concerned over historical accuracy.

Higgins had a precise writing style and was careful with facts but he didn't have first hand knowledge of the passenger stock. He seems not to have located evidence of liveries used at Wantage, and the vaguest paragraph in his book is on page 71 -
"Engines and cars were usually painted and varnished locally, the work being put up for tender. The colours, therefore, probably varied in shade fairly widely. During the last thirty years of the passenger service the cars were generally painted a medium shade of olive green and cream with gold lining, but latterly the remaining three cars (Nos. 3, 4 and 5) were repainted without lining. The cars may have been painted brown or maroon at one time. The engines seem usually to have been painted in various shades of green."
Hardly conclusive. The colourised postcard showing green car and loco is very unreliable evidence, a very large proportion of colourised postcards were manufactured in Germany and colours are often completely wrong because they were not based on personal knowledge. I think the statements that the tram cars were green may be based on the postcard image so it is a circular argument. There are several published references to the cars being red brown, but nothing conclusive that I have seen.

I am not aware of any new documentary evidence for any of the suggested pre 1920s colours. It would be good to have information from Didcot confirming what the red schemes were based on, the word of a random nearby volunteer may not be reliable. The lining appears to be copied from the Real Photographs image published on p83 of Nicholas de Courtais' The Wantage Tramway and p25 of Reg Wilkinson's book of the same name, also visible in the 1892 photo in Plate 11 in Higgins.

 

[daifly]

On a visit to Didcot 4 years ago, some 'forensic' cleaning of the paint was taking place.

In the area below "No 5" can be seen various layers of green shades with a 'recent' red oxide? layer. However, the centre shows a red layer followed by the dark green background layer equivalent to the revealed "W.T.Co.". Now, that inner red layer may have been the primer coat for the WTC dark green or it may have been an earlier colour. There seems no evidence here of black in the sequence although that may have been removed before the early red was applied.

Dave
edited to add High Res crop of area of interest

 

[DrIain]

Regarding the cab curtains on Jane, I took the following picture at Didcot in September 2019. It shows the stiff canvas curtains which were fitted recently. This might be if some use in modelling them.

Iain

 

[Mike Trice]

Would foil food containers work being thicker than normal kitchen foil?

 

[spikey faz]

Thanks for pictures and ideas. I think I'll try both the foil and tissue options on replicating the canvas curtains. Still some way off from that stage yet though as I've still got to build the rest of the loco first. Could be a while, so hopefully a decision will be made on the proper colour by then!

Mike

 

[Ian_C]

Regarding the cab curtains on Jane, I took the following picture at Didcot in September 2019. It shows the stiff canvas curtains which were fitted recently. This might be if some use in modelling them.

Iain

Try and get some pewter foil. It's usually a military modelling thing, but I imagine eBay or Amazon could oblige. Very pliable and can be used to represent folded fabric. Probably great for wagon sheets too, although I've never tried...

 

[Stevesopwith]

Thanks Dave, That is certainly a more sophisticated analysis of the paint layers than I was aware of.

I think it discounts the suggestion of a complete paint strip in the 70s.

Without a chemical analysis of the red paint layer, it is still open whether it was a primer or a colour layer... but it certainly could be a crimson lake top coat.

Jenkins, in 'Railway Archive', notes his assumptions that on arrival at Wantage it was probably LNWR black, then GWR green, then 'during the Edwardian period it apparently was painted crimson lake.'

The somewhat haphazard repaint policy noted by Higgins leaves it open whether all locos were so treated, but the case for the red colour for Jane looks stronger

C.Man.Micheal, in British Railways Illustrated, includes a photo of Tram Loco No 6, with the caption 'the engine is wearing the official WTC livery of GWR-style green, and the car is green and buff'.
This was in about 1920... around the time that the two steam locos were in and out of Swindon works.

In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, I'm happy to take both these claims at face value.

Returning to Mike's project... he is of course free to paint it as he wishes, and unless he is portraying that particular loco at a specific time in the line's history, no one can say it's incorrect.

My own Wantage project is set in 1923, for a variety of reasons, including photo references, track changes, minor car livery changes etc... and it's right in the middle of the Swindon connections; so I am confident in my choice of what C.Man.Micheal calls the 'official WTC livery' at that time... whilst being more open than I was before, to the possibility of an earlier, different livery.

That's why we come here... to learn stuff !

Cheers, Overseer, Dave, and Mike.

 

[Graham Bustin]

Not my photo but the most recent red scheme in preservation -
View attachment 122924

I painted mine in blue as George England's house colour was reportedly royal blue. Not sure what colour it was on the Sandy and Potton Railway. The LNWR probably painted it a Brunswick green while they owned it, and then possibly black before sale. Then red on the Wantage Tramway until the late 1920s when it seems to have been painted in GW green at Swindon. It was repainted GW green for display on the platform at Wantage Road. At Didcot it has alternated between green and red.

Hi,
I did see her when she was plinthed at the old Wantage Road station and I seem to remember that the colour was a lighter shade than GW standard. Mind you although covered it was open to the elements and she did not look particularly clean.
When she was repainted recently a number of different colours were found when stripped in preparation.
All the photos that I have seen of her in service, on the Tramway, she never looked that well looked after.
Try to get a copy of the Wild Swan book, recently reprinted.
Graham.

 

[spikey faz]

The valve gear has been fighting me! Clearance is minimal in S7 and I had to get a bit radical to make sure the whole assembly wasn't going to tie itself in knots. Far more experienced modellers than me probably do this kind of thing in their sleep, whereas my approach involved some interesting language! Five days later and I've got one side completed. Still needs a lot of cleaning up. I'm hoping my home-brewed slidebar lubricators will help distract from my bodging. Just the other side to do now.




Mike

 

[spikey faz]

And t'other side.