LNWR Webb 0-4-0ST owned by the LYR

[Marc Dobson]

At Scalefourum I picked up a London Road Models LNWR Webb 0-4-0ST kit from the bring and buy stand as I was under the impression that the LYR had 5 and I thought it would go nicely with a pug. However, when I have come to look at the instruction and online I can't seam to find any evidence of the LYR having any. Can anyone how is wise in these matters point me in the right direction? If they didn't have any it's still a nice loco.

Marc

 

[Mike W]

Yes, 5 were supplied to the L&Y in 1872. The only picture that comes to mind shows pure Crewe fittings and no ownership markings, but they were probably soon altered by the L&Y.

Mike

 

[Marc Dobson]

I'm presuming that they were never rebuilt with cabs.
Marc

 

[Tim Birch]

I'm presuming that they were never rebuilt with cabs.
Marc

The volume of Baxter which deals with the LYR states the following:
408 rebuilt 9/1882 and fitted with cab. Withdrawn 7/1894
409 rebuilt 8/1880 with 4'3" driving wheels and probably fitted with a cab in9/1882. Withdrawn 11/1897
410 rebuilt as 0-6-0st in 4/1877 with 4'6" wheels. Withdrawn 7/1894
411 rebuilt as 0-6-0st in 8/1880 with 4'6" wheels. Withdrawn 8/1900
412 probably fitted with cab in 1/1881. Withdrawn 3/1902.

Here is a photo of one in early LYR days. Cab side number plates were not fitted to LYR engines until 1881 (although former East Lancashire engines had them from 1875. Changes from LNW condition are at least the chimney, capacious toolbox, lamp irons, safety valves and probably the coupling hook. The photo is in Volume three of Marshall's history of the LYR.

Tim Birch

 

[Marc Dobson]

The photo is great. Not alot I can do with the chimney as it's moulded to the tank but the tool box is a quick win.
No412 looks like the best one to go for then. Presumably they got a set of LNWR drawings for the cab and built it themselves?

Marc

 

[Tim Birch]

The photo is great. Not alot I can do with the chimney as it's moulded to the tank but the tool box is a quick win.
No412 looks like the best one to go for then. Presumably they got a set of LNWR drawings for the cab and built it themselves?

Marc

They were all rebuilt during the time of Barton Wright who was quite happy to rebuild earlier engines to keep them in traffic if they had a useful life left. There is not much room for a cab, so I suspect it either was similar to the one fitted to engines at Crewe, or could have looked similar to the ones fitted to the special tanks.

 

[Mike W]

Tim, are you sure those are details of the 0-4-0 saddle tanks? Rebuilding into an 0-6-0ST must have meant a virtually new engine. But rebuilding an ex-LNWR DX 0-6-0 Goods (which the L&Y also had) into a six-coupled saddle tank would be simple. The chimney looks like a standard LNWR Ramsbottom one to me? and the safety valve standard LNWR for the era, before they had a casing.

Mike

 

[Tim Birch]

Tim, are you sure those are details of the 0-4-0 saddle tanks? Rebuilding into an 0-6-0ST must have meant a virtually new engine. But rebuilding an ex-LNWR DX 0-6-0 Goods (which the L&Y also had) into a six-coupled saddle tank would be simple. The chimney looks like a standard LNWR Ramsbottom one to me? and the safety valve standard LNWR for the era, before they had a casing.

Mike

Mike, yes, they were rebuilt as virtually new engines as the frames were extended to the rear. Barton Wright was happy to reconstruct engines to meet a need, if the basic machine was sound. Perhaps the most extreme examples were the Jenkins 0-6-0 tender engines, of which three were rebuilt as 0-4-4T, 18 were rebuilt as 0-6-2T using Webb's patented radial axle before Webb had used it himself, and eight were rebuilt as 0-6-0ST.

My statement about the chimney did not say what I intended, as the change was to a LYR chimney after the photo was taken. I agree about the safety valves. I have found a later photo of no. 408 with the later chimney, different buffers and ordinary 3-link couplings. It is from Barry Lane's book on LYR locomotives. The cab should answer Marc's query about the appearance.

Tim

 

[Marc Dobson]

Brilliant photo. The chimney might need some surgery but I should be able to make up the cab. I'm also presuming that there was no footplate access from the other side as per the LNWR locos, as that was where the bunker was.

Many thanks

 

[Tim Birch]

Brilliant photo. The chimney might need some surgery but I should be able to make up the cab. I'm also presuming that there was no footplate access from the other side as per the LNWR locos, as that was where the bunker was.

Many thanks

I would presume that the side sheets remained as they were so that there was somewhere to keep a bit of coal. Narrow Planet will do you a nice set of LYR numberplates. I think that I have the pre RHS standard LYR lamp codes somewhere so that you could display the correct code for a shunting engine, as it would be a shame not to have such magnificent lamps as are in the first photo.

Tim

 

[OzzyO]

Mike, yes, they were rebuilt as virtually new engines as the frames were extended to the rear. Barton Wright was happy to reconstruct engines to meet a need, if the basic machine was sound. Perhaps the most extreme examples were the Jenkins 0-6-0 tender engines, of which three were rebuilt as 0-4-4T, 18 were rebuilt as 0-6-2T using Webb's patented radial axle before Webb had used it himself, and eight were rebuilt as 0-6-0ST.

My statement about the chimney did not say what I intended, as the change was to a LYR chimney after the photo was taken. I agree about the safety valves. I have found a later photo of no. 408 with the later chimney, different buffers and ordinary 3-link couplings. It is from Barry Lane's book on LYR locomotives. The cab should answer Marc's query about the appearance.

Tim

View attachment 171423

Did these locos run with a very rudimentary tender (not much more that a small wagon with side walls)? I ask this due to the large hole in the "cab" back sheet.

OzzyO.

 

[Tim Birch]

Did these locos run with a very rudimentary tender (not much more that a small wagon with side walls)? I ask this due to the large hole in the "cab" back sheet.

OzzyO.

It seems not, as they worked in yards where coaling could be done from wooden stages. I understand that the hole was needed to manipulate the fire irons.